The Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm by Anne Koedt

Mon, 05/25/2009 - 10:37
Submitted by Betty Dodson

After I read the article below by Anne Koedt in 1970, I was thrilled and made a cold call hoping to meet and discuss how we could collaborate. Although Anne was suspicious of me over the phone, once she was sure of my feminist credentials, she set up an appointment. During our visit, she explained that after receiving so much hate mail and a death threat as a result of her article, she was going to disappear. She had just begun a new relationship with a man she loved and didn't want to jeopardize their future with feminist politics. I picked up where she left off to carry the clitoral banner.  I'm thrilled to be republishing Anne's piece here:

The Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm
by Anne Koedt

Whenever female orgasm and frigidity are discussed, a false distinction is made between the vaginal and the clitoral orgasm. Frigidity has generally been defined by men as the failure of women to have vaginal orgasms. Actually the vagina is not a highly sensitive area and is not constructed to achieve orgasm. It is the clitoris which is the center of sexual sensitivity and which is the female equivalent of the penis.

I think this explains a great many things: First of all, the fact that the so-called frigidity rate among women is phenomenally high. Rather than tracing female frigidity to the false assumptions about female anatomy, our "experts" have declared frigidity a psychological problem of women. Those women who complained about it were recommended psychiatrists, so that they might discover their "problem" -diagnosed generally as a failure to adjust to their role as women.

The facts of female anatomy and sexual response tell a different story. Although there are many areas for sexual arousal, there is only one area for sexual climax; that area is the clitoris. All orgasms are extensions of sensation from this area. Since the clitoris is not necessarily stimulated sufficiently in the conventional sexual positions, we are left "frigid."

Aside from physical stimulation, which is the common cause of orgasm for most people, there is also stimulation through primarily mental processes. Some women, for example, may achieve orgasm through sexual fantasies, or through fetishes. However, while the stimulation may be psychological, the orgasm manifests itself physically. Thus, while the cause is psychological, the effect is still physical, and the orgasm necessarily takes place in the sexual organ equipped for sexual climax, the clitoris. The orgasm experience may also differ in degree of intensity - some more localized, and some more diffuse and sensitive. But they are all clitoral orgasms.

All this leads to some interesting questions about conventional sex and our role in it. Men have orgasms essentially by friction with the vagina, not the clitoral area, which is external and not able to cause friction the way penetration does. Women have thus been defined sexually in terms of what pleases men; our own biology has not been properly analyzed. Instead, we are fed the myth of the liberated woman and her vaginal orgasm - an orgasm which in fact does not exist.

What we must do is redefine our sexuality. We must discard the "normal" concepts of sex and create new guidelines which take into account mutual sexual enjoyment. While the idea of mutual enjoyment is liberally applauded in marriage manuals, it is not followed to its logical conclusion. We must begin to demand that if certain sexual positions now defined as "standard" are not mutually conducive to orgasm, they no longer be defined as standard. New techniques must be used or devised which transform this particular aspect of our current sexual exploitation.

Freud - Father of the Vaginal Orgasm: Freud contended that the clitoral orgasm was adolescent, and that upon puberty, when women began having intercourse with men, women should transfer the center of orgasm to the vagina. The vagina, it was assumed, was able to produce a parallel, but more mature, orgasm than the clitoris. Much work was done to elaborate on this theory, but little was done to challenge the basic assumptions.

To fully appreciate this incredible invention, perhaps Freud's general attitude about women should first be recalled. Mary Ellman, in Thinking About Women, summed it up this way: Everything in Freud's patronizing and fearful attitude toward women follows from their lack of a penis, but it is only in his essay "The Psychology of Women" that Freud makes explicit... the deprecations of women which are implicit in his work. He then prescribes for them the abandonment of the life of the mind, which will interfere with their sexual function. When the psycho-analyzed patient is male, the analyst sets himself the task of developing the man's capacities; but with women patients, the job is to resign them to the limits of their sexuality. As Mr. Rieff puts it, "For Freud, analysis cannot encourage in women new energies for success and achievement, but only teach them the lesson of rational resignation."

It was Freud's feelings about women's secondary and inferior relationship to men that formed the basis for his theories on female sexuality. Once having laid down the law about the nature of our sexuality, Freud not so strangely discovered a tremendous problem of frigidity in women. His recommended cure for a woman who was frigid was psychiatric care. She was suffering from failure to mentally adjust to her "natural" role as a woman. Frank S. Caprio, a contemporary follower of these ideas, states: "...whenever a woman is incapable of achieving an orgasm via coitus, provided the husband is an adequate partner, and prefers clitoral stimulation to any other form of sexual activity, she can be regarded as suffering from frigidity and requires psychiatric assistance." (The Sexually Adequate Female, p.64.)

The explanation given was that women were envious of men - renunciation of womanhood. Thus it was diagnosed as an anti-male phenomenon. It is important to emphasize that Freud did not base his theory upon a study of woman's anatomy, but rather upon his assumptions of woman as an inferior appendage to man, and her consequent social and psychological role. In their attempts to deal with the ensuing problem of mass frigidity, Freudians embarked on elaborate mental gymnastics. Marie Bonaparte, in Female Sexuality, goes so far as to suggest surgery to help women back on their rightful path. Having discovered a strange connection between the non-frigid woman and the location of the clitoris near the vagina,

"It then occurred to me that where, in certain women, this gap was excessive, and clitoral fixation obdurate, a clitoral-vaginal reconciliation might be effected by surgical means, which would then benefit the normal erotic function. Professor Halban, of Vienna, as much a biologist as surgeon, became interested in the problem and worked out a simple operative technique. In this, the suspensory ligament of the clitoris was severed and the clitoris secured to the underlying structures, thus fixing it in a lower position, with eventual reduction of the labia minora. (p.148.)

But the severest damage was not in the area of surgery, where Freudians ran around absurdly trying to change female anatomy to fit their basic assumptions. The worst damage was done to the mental health of women, who either suffered silently with self-blame or flocked to psychiatrists looking desperately for the hidden and terrible repression that had kept from them their vaginal destiny.

Lack of Evidence: One may perhaps at first claim that these are unknown and unexplored areas, but upon closer examination this is certainly not true today, nor was it true even in the past. For example, men have known that women suffered from frigidity often during intercourse. So the problem was there. Also, there is much specific evidence. Men knew that the clitoris was and is the essential organ for masturbation, whether in children or adult women. So obviously women made it clear where they thought their sexuality was located. Men also seem suspiciously aware of the clitoral powers during "foreplay," when they want to arouse women and produce the necessary lubrication for penetration. Foreplay is a concept created for male purposes, but works to the disadvantage of many women, since as soon as the woman is aroused the man changes to vaginal stimulation, leaving her both aroused and unsatisfied. It has also been known that women need no anesthesia inside the vagina during surgery, thus pointing to the fact that the vagina is in fact not a highly sensitive area.

Today, with extensive knowledge of anatomy, with Kelly, Kinsey, and Masters and Johnson, to mention just a few sources, there is no ignorance on the subject. There are, however, social reasons why this knowledge has not been popularized. We are living in a male society which has not sought change in women's role.

Anatomical Evidence: Rather than starting with what women ought to feel, it would seem logical to start out with the anatomical facts regarding the clitoris and vagina. The Clitoris is a small equivalent of the penis, except for the fact that the urethra does not go through it as in the man's penis. Its erection is similar to the male erection, and the head of the clitoris has the same type of structure and function as the head of the penis. C. Lombard Kelly, in Sexual Feeling in Married Men and Women, says: "The head of the clitoris is also composed of erectile tissue, and it possesses a very sensitive epithelium or surface covering, supplied with special nerve endings called genital corpuscles, which are peculiarly adapted for sensory stimulation that under proper mental conditions terminates in the sexual orgasm. No other part of the female generative tract has such corpuscles." (Pocketbooks; p.35.) The clitoris has no other function than that of sexual pleasure.

The Vagina - Its functions are related to, the reproductive function. Principally, 1) menstruation, 2) receive penis, 3) hold semen, and 4) birth passage. The interior of the vagina, which according to the defenders of the vaginally caused orgasm is the center and producer of the orgasm, is: Like nearly all other internal body structures, poorly supplied with end organs of touch. The internal entodermal origin of the lining of the vagina makes it similar in this respect to the rectum and other parts of the digestive tract. (Kinsey, Sexual Behavior in the Human Female, p.580.)

The degree of insensitivity inside the vagina is so high that "Among the women who were tested in our gynecologic sample, less than 14% were at all conscious that they had been touched." (Kinsey, p. 580.)

Even the importance of the vagina as an erotic center (as opposed to an orgasmic center) has been found to be minor. Other Areas - Labia minora and the vestibule of the vagina. These two sensitive areas may trigger off a clitoral orgasm. Because they can be effectively stimulated during "normal" coitus, though infrequently, this kind of stimulation is incorrectly thought to be vaginal orgasm. However, it is important to distinguish between areas which can stimulate the clitoris, incapable of producing the orgasm themselves, and the clitoris: " Regardless of what means of excitation is used to bring the individual to the state of sexual climax, the sensation is perceived by the genital corpuscles and is localized where they are situated: in the head of the clitoris or penis." (Kelly, p.49.)

Psychologically Stimulated Orgasm: Aside from the above mentioned direct and indirect stimulation of the clitoris, there is a third way an orgasm may be triggered. This is through mental (cortical) stimulation, where the imagination stimulates the brain, which in turn stimulates the genital corpuscles of the glans to set off an orgasm.

Women Who Say They Have Vaginal Orgasms: Confusion - Because of the lack of knowledge of their own anatomy, some women accept the idea that an orgasm felt during "normal" intercourse was vaginally caused. This confusion is caused by a combination of two factors. One, failing to locate the center of the orgasm, and two, by a desire to fit her experience to the male-defined idea of sexual normalcy. Considering that women know little about their anatomy, it is easy to be confused.

Deception: The vast majority of women who pretend vaginal orgasm to their men are faking it to "get the job." In a new bestselling Danish book, I Accuse, Mette Ejlersen specifically deals with this common problem, which she calls the "sex comedy." This comedy has many causes. First of all, the man brings a great deal of pressure to bear on the woman, because he considers his ability as a lover at stake. So as not to offend his ego, the woman will comply with the prescribed role and go through simulated ecstasy. In some of the other Danish women mentioned, women who were left frigid were turned off to sex, and pretended vaginal orgasm to hurry up the sex act. Others admitted that they had faked vaginal orgasm to catch a man. In one case, the woman pretended vaginal orgasm to get him to leave his first wife, who admitted being vaginally frigid. Later she was forced to continue the deception, since obviously she couldn't tell him to stimulate her clitorally.

Many more women were simply afraid to establish their right to equal enjoyment, seeing the sexual act as being primarily for the man's benefit, and any pleasure that the woman got as an added extra. Other women, with just enough ego to reject the man's idea that they needed psychiatric care, refused to admit their frigidity. They wouldn't accept self-blame, but they didn't know how to solve the problem, not knowing the physiological facts about themselves. So they were left in a peculiar limbo.

Again, perhaps one of the most infuriating and damaging results of this whole charade has been that women who were perfectly healthy sexually were taught that they were not. So in addition to being sexually deprived, these women were told to blame themselves when they deserved no blame. Looking for a cure to a problem that has none can lead a woman on an endless path of self-hatred and insecurity. For she is told by her analyst that not even in her one role allowed in a male society - the role of a woman - is she successful. She is put on the defensive, with phony data as evidence that she'd better try to be even more feminine, think more feminine, and reject her envy of men. That is, shuffle even harder, baby.

Why Men Maintain the Myth:

# 1. Sexual Penetration Is Preferred:
The best physical stimulant for the penis is the woman's vagina. It supplies the necessary friction and lubrication. From a strictly technical point of view this position offers the best physical conditions, even though the man may try other positions for variation.

# 2. The Invisible Woman:
One of the elements of male chauvinism is the refusal or inability to see women as total, separate human beings. Rather, men have chosen to define women only in terms of how they benefited men's lives. Sexually, a woman was not seen as an individual wanting to share equally in the sexual act, any more than she was seen as a person with independent desires when she did anything else in society. Thus, it was easy to make up what was convenient about women; for on top of that, society has been a function of male interests, and women were not organized to form even a vocal opposition to the male experts.

# 3. The Penis as Epitome of Masculinity: Men define their lives primarily in terms of masculinity. It is a universal form of ego-boosting. That is, in every society, however homogeneous (i.e., with the absence of racial, ethnic, or major economic differences) there is always a group, women, to oppress.

The essence of male chauvinism is in the psychological superiority men exercise over women. This kind of superior - inferior definition of self, rather than positive definition based upon one's own achievements and development, has of course chained victim and oppressor both. But by far the most brutalized of the two is the victim.

An analogy is racism, where the white racist compensates for his feelings of unworthiness by creating an image of the black man (it is primarily a male struggle) as biologically inferior to him. Because of his position in a white male power structure, the white man can socially enforce this mythical division.

To the extent that men try to rationalize and justify male superiority through physical differentiation, masculinity may be symbolized by being the most muscular, the most hairy; having the deepest voice, and the biggest penis. Women, on the other hand, are approved of (i.e., called feminine) if they are weak, petite, shave their legs, and have high soft voices.

Since the clitoris is almost identical to the penis, one finds a great deal of evidence of men in various societies trying to either ignore the clitoris and emphasize the vagina (as did Freud), or, as in some places in the Middle East, actually performing clitoraldectomy, Freud saw this ancient and still practiced custom as a way of further "feminizing" the female by removing this cardinal vestige of her masculinity. It should be noted also that a big clitoris is considered ugly and masculine. Some cultures engage in the practice of pouring a chemical on the clitoris to make it shrivel up into "proper" size.
It seems clear to me that men in fact fear the clitoris as a threat to masculinity.

# 4. Sexually Expendable Male: Men fear that they will become sexually expendable if the clitoris is substituted for the vagina as the center of pleasure for women. Actually this has a great deal of validity if one considers only the anatomy. The position of the penis inside the vagina, while perfect for reproduction does not necessarily stimulate an orgasm in women because the clitoris is located externally and higher up. Women must rely upon indirect stimulation in the "normal" position.

Lesbian sexuality could make an excellent case, based upon anatomical data, for the irrelevancy of the male organ. Albert Ellis says something to the effect that a man without a penis can make a woman an excellent lover.

Considering that the vagina is very desirable from a man's point of view, purely on physical grounds, one begins to see the dilemma for men. And it forces us as well to discard many "physical" arguments explaining why women go to bed with men. What is left, it seems to me, are primarily psychological reasons why women select men at the exclusion of women as sexual partners.

# 5. Control of Women: One reason given to explain the Mid-eastern practice of clitoraldectomy is that it will keep the women from straying. By removing the sexual organ capable of orgasm, it must be assumed that her sexual drive will diminish. Considering how men look upon their women as property, particularly in very backward nations, we should begin to consider a great deal more why it is not in men's interest to have women totally free sexually. The double standard, as practiced for example in Latin America, is set up to keep the woman as total property of the husband, while he is free to have affairs as he wishes.
# 6. Lesbianism and Bisexuality: Aside from the strictly anatomical reasons why women might equally seek other women as lovers, there is a fear on men's part that women will seek the company of other women on a full, human basis. The recognition of clitoral orgasm as fact would threaten the heterosexual institution. For it would indicate that sexual pleasure was obtainable from either men or women, thus making heterosexuality not an absolute, but an option. It would open up the whole question of human sexual relationships beyond the confines of the present male-female role system.
Betty responds further: In my 1974 book Liberating Masturbation: a Meditation on Selflove that I had to self-publish as no one else would, my statement on female frigidity is in the chapter titled: "Becoming Cunt Positive." I stated the following:

"Masturbation finally puts an end to the concept of frigidity. If a woman can stimulate her clitoris to orgasm she is orgasmic and sexually healthy. "Frigid" is a man's word for a woman who cannot have an orgasm in the missionary position in five minutes with the kind of stimulation that's only good for him."

Looking back over our feminist sex history, it is clear how women have been sidetracked by books like "Coital Alignment" for vaginal orgasms. Or Helen Kaplan who is revered by sex therapists and whose book I illustrated. I pleaded with her to include a drawing of a woman stimulating her own clitoris during intercourse as that was how I was having orgasms at the time. The illustration made it into her book, but she added the following caption: "In this version the woman stimulates herself to a point just prior to orgasm, and then the couple commences thrusting vigorously, thereby bringing her to climax." The penis reigned supreme once again.

Just as seventies feminists were reinstating the clitoris, the eighties introduced the G-spot orgasm which had everyone diving back inside the vagina. These orgasms were triggered by pressure on the ceiling of the vagina which I originally described as the "back side of the clitoris." Following that there were New Age climaxes such as "Breath Orgasms" and "Energy Orgasms." None of these required any clitoral or vaginal contact at all. We now have the C-spot orgasm (cervical pressure) and the D-spot orgasm from the cul-de-sac of the vagina, and the A-spot orgasm (ceiling of the vagina about an inch or more behind the G-spot). These mysterious vaginal spots all respond to pressure as society desperately tries to sustain the myth of the vaginal orgasm.

No one seems to notice that these "spots" are best dealt with using fingers. In other words, a guy no longer needs to get and keep an erection to give his woman a vaginal orgasm. Oh really? One of my speculations is that the birth canal is where we all came from so many men (as well as some women) simply wanted to get back inside Mommy. Meanwhile the clitoris continues to be ignored, devalued and made suspect by both men and brain washed women who want to appear sexy and feminine while they expertly fake passion during intercourse, especially with a hard fuck that's now seen as the height of masculine desire thanks to all the online porn.

I've lived through all of this vaginal madness and I clearly remember those few times in my youth when I could come from intercourse alone. Glory, hallelujah, I was a mature woman at last! The fact that I was getting indirect clit stim as he played at the opening of my vagina with his uncircumcised dick wasn't factored in. At the moment I was really turned on, I'd ask permission to get on top. Then I hunkered down and fucked him until I came. Of course we did sex the same way every time or it wouldn't work.

At the age of 35 and recently divorced, Grant Taylor entered my life. He had read every book available on sex. He healed my imagined genital deformity. I believed my dangling inner lips had been stretched by excessive childhood masturbation. He also added delicate clitoral stimulation during intercourse with his moistened fingers. After the sexual part of our affair ended, he spent the rest of his life aiding and supporting my efforts to speak out about female sexuality, masturbation and the clitoris as a woman's primary sex organ. I'll always be grateful he entered my life. Our 43 year collaboration has become even more precious with his absence these past two years. Some days I can mentally hear him criticizing a sentence I've written or challenging a concept. He would love the website we have today that he set up for me in 1998, especially my Genital Art Gallery. Grant was a "Connoisseur of Cunts" and a clit hound. I gladly carry on his tradition.

In Anne Koedt's own words, "...perhaps one of the most infuriating and damaging results of this whole charade has been that women who were perfectly healthy sexually were taught that they were not. So in addition to being sexually deprived, these women were told to blame themselves when they deserved no blame. Looking for a cure to a problem that has none can lead a woman on an endless path of self-hatred and insecurity."

In all the forty-some years I've taught women about orgasm, the same problems exist now as then. Childhood masturbation was punished or inhibited. The same as me forty years ago, women don't like their genitals and they don't understand their own sexual anatomy. Many have never seen their clitoris and they can't find their G-spots and "squirt" to please a lover. They continue to fear vibrator addiction and long to come from a lover's touch. Or better yet, they want to learn how to come during intercourse.

Forget Ensler's Vagina Warriors. When women claim the Clitoris as our rightful sex organ of pleasure, we can end the war between the sexes. Orgasmic women will heal us from all the lies we've been told. Once liberated, people can end America's wars of aggression as our number one form of business. Pleasure belongs to all people.

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Preach it Sister

Mon, 05/25/2009 - 21:58
A.U. (not verified)

I have never read a more thorough and thoughtful analysis of this subject. Ms. Koedt's article with Betty's addition should be spread across the internet! Every young woman should read it. And wait-every young man! I have never made the connection that if women should have vaginal orgasms, then why did the practice of female circumcision develop? They knew all along it was our source of pleasure. I agree this obsession with the G-spot these days has hurt some young women. One more spot that we have to worry about. And one more way to make a man lazy, and ask "did you come?" thinking he could reach that G-spot with his mighty cock!

Thank you so much for this!! Spread the word!!

Brilliant and informative

Mon, 05/25/2009 - 22:22

Thanks so much for posting this Betty; both Anne Koedt's article and your response should be required reading in every secondary school. The links between feminist perspectives, cultural theory, racism and the need for evidence in scientific discourse, are so often missed in discussions about sex and only seem to surface through voices that are mostly deemed too radical for general public consumption.

Over the last couple of years I've been reading bell hooks, re-reading Greer's superb Sex and Destiny and getting aquainted with Edward Said. I've always had a bee in my bonnet about power-relations, and how power shapes politics: and the older I get the more convinced I become that my apparantly naive view that ultimately it's all about power is correct. Yet saying that now seems even more radical than it did in the 1970s; the international powers of the military industrial complex having since entrenched themselves more fully as the cultural force controlling the ubiquitous global economy.

While, in the US, Obama might have slid the agenda slightly leftwards, it seems that in Europe the movement is in the opposite direction; the needs of the global economy outweighing everything in the formualation of our national curricula and the range of courses promoted by our universities and their sponsors.

Such disconnected assumptions, so wonderfully dispatched by your post, are even affecting the ways in which World Development is being taught. That most vital of interdisciplinary subjects having been emasculated by business interests at the expense of rational exposition. With the planet in such deep trouble, we now need the logic of left-wing feminist positions even more - as no amount of orgasms will halt climate change without the existing power structures being challenged. Indeed, the retreat into hedonism might even slow change further, particularly when eroticism is controlled by the fat cats of the pornography industry with the aim of supplying the me-me-me generation with a constant supply of distraction and atomistic desire.  

best wishes

Chu

   

Arguably the best essay ever witten!

Tue, 05/26/2009 - 09:18

This remarkable explanation should be in sex education textbooks.

Brilliant!

Tue, 05/26/2009 - 10:40
Safa (not verified)

Dear Betty,

I'm printing this one out for my kids. I have always wondered if the difference between men and women in reaching orgasm is the basis for most of the problems of this world. More heterosexual women need to be honest with each other about the fact that "normal" intercourse just doesn't feel that good. The myth of the vaginal orgasm goes along with the myth that women are not visually stimulated. I am very visually stimulated if I have something nice to look at. As a young teenager, I was turned on by drawings of Native American men in history books. They were hot!!!!

Peace

Safa

Just where did I put that darn clitoris, anyway?

Tue, 05/26/2009 - 14:18
Mysti Easterwood (not verified)

Dear Dame Dodson,

As much as I love and respect your vivacity (vulvacity?) and courage, it seems to me that the internal/external argument about orgasm is something of a straw dog. I just put this on EF's planetwaves website in reply to the issue:

"This reminds me of Larry Durrell’s phrase: choice young cliterocrats.

"The nerves of what we call the clit wrap around the top of the vagina, forming a wishbone pattern, the ‘legs’ ending just a few millimeters from the sacrum. These nerves meet in the front of the vulva, tying themselves into that neat little knot.

"There are two principle things that happen during the fuck: one is that both ‘legs’ of the wishbone are stimulated, the other has to do with the joints at the hips and symphysis pubis - when they are ‘jarred’ by the impact of intercourse, they release the structure held a certain way by our bipedal habits. This alters our awareness of the duality that our body demonstrates. I won’t say that it eliminates it, but it is reduced.

"Add to this stim of that topknot and you have quite a party. The cool thing about women’s sexuality is that we are built to move subtle sexual energy as it comes in (from the tip toward the sacrum) or out (from the wishbones to the tip). This is the main reason that every single tantra in the world begins with the declaration that all women are goddesses. We aren’t vertical in our sexuality, we’re circular.

"In other words: masturbation is lovely *and* the clitoris can also be stimulated through intercourse. Mary Roach (author of Bonk!) talks about how cool it is that pigs have an internal clit. Well, actually, so do we all."

Your humble reader,

Mysti Easterwood
Tantra for Bobos (in progress)

Not helping.

Tue, 05/26/2009 - 21:35
A.U. (not verified)

Mysti, thanks for your analysis of "Larry's" writings. When "Larry" has a clit, I will listen. The issue is not a "straw dog" because Betty is writing for the majority of women who have been oppressed, and shamed, and been uneducated, and continue to be. She is speaking to the political, the economic, the social forces in our world. She is not speaking to the very small population of people who practice Tantric Sex, and isn't speaking to biology and physiology alone. She is trying to get the word out there, because as she said, she has been answering the same question for 30 years, and it's time for answers.

I would invite "Larry" to come to my house, thrust away at me, and try to make me cum. Then, I'll take it all back.

on indirect clitoral orgasm

Wed, 05/27/2009 - 09:05

Planning on writing a response to both Anne and Betty's info. My current beliefs and findings. In response to Mysti, you use the word "impact". I'm going to assume you're implying the style of fuck in this case is a fast and hard thrust where the penetrating partner's pelvis is impacting with enough force against where the clitoral legs are positioned that they get a momentary jolt of pleasurable sensation at the moment of impact. While it is true that this is pleasurable for women, to one degree or another depending on her bodytype and the precise angle that this is happening on, it is not nearly as consistently orgasmic across the majority of womankind as direct stimulation of the glans clitoris is.

Further, the penetrating partner will have to go fast enough and hard enough over time to get her there with any consistency. The momentary jolts of pleasure must come close enough one after the other to steadily drive a woman to her orgasm and even then it isn't always successful. Add to that the stamina and muscular development that the penetrating partner has to have, plus the penetrating partner's weight slamming against her at speed (greater impact the heavier something is when it moves at speed) as compared to the woman and her body structure. What that means is even if the pen.partner can fuck hard enough and long enough, (he'd better be breathing like a jogger in any event) if his mass in motion does not make significant enough impact on the woman (and the legs of the clitoris/pelvis/uterus) then it may feel erotic to her, psychologically and physically, but she will soon realize it's not enough impact stimulation for her to come that way no matter how long he does it. Now, if she could integrate direct glans clitoris stimulation into that, where that stroking/vibing and the pounding sensations combine, she may well, and more consistently, blow her head off with a big orgasm.

To conclude, yeah, it's -possible- for some women under certain physical circumstances with certain partners to have an orgasm from JUST the legs of the clitoris (and the uterus and pelvic structure) being impacted. The problem is, it is -not- as consistent a source of orgasm, let alone the intensity of that orgasm, when compared to the direct stimulation of the glans clitoris across the majority of women (and their partners.) Due to this discrepancy in consistency and ease, my professional view is the internal/external argument is quite necessary if we are striving for the highest level of accuracy with moving our sexlives forward.

Now. Talking about sexual energy or energetics in general is a whole other galaxy that neither Anne nor Betty is even remotely addressing. We're just talking about the physical body here. I study energy, sexual and otherwise, and in your tantric path, I urge you to not take it lightly that everything you are told or think you're feeling is accurate. I'm connected to the Tantric community and not everyone out there knows what they're talking about. (Particularly with duality and non-duality.) I like www.tantrapm.com for teachers that are well-grounded and have a commitment to energetic accuracy and integrity in their teachings to the best of their current understanding.

Invoking LD?

Thu, 05/28/2009 - 08:46
Anonymous User (not verified)

Hi A.U...

I just thought Laurence Durrell's neologism was funny - and oddly tender. These aren't his observations (well, he's been dead for over a decade, so who knows - he may have a clit by now) - so let me see if I can walk us back over to my voice.

Focusing on the knot of the clit is fine, but the whole neural complex extends all the way around the base. Hence the 'ache' that appears deeper in the perineum during arousal and orgasm. By 'fuck' I didn't just mean hetero intercourse, any more than 'impact' means vigorous thrusting.

I am saying that the energy of arousal in women circulates. Impact helps set it up so that you can feel this. One way is to extend your legs in front of you, lift your body up on your palms and drop on to your coccyx. You'll feel a jolt of energy fly from your sacrum up to your crown. That doesn't address the fluids and related enzymes in your hip joints, but it's a start.

From what I've been able to tell (with limited experience), fisting --really, we have to find a better word for this!-- also produces similar decoupling of the binary messaging built into the lower extremities. Will say more as I know more. . . *8^D

Playfully yours,

M

assuming the position

Thu, 05/28/2009 - 09:06
Anonymous User (not verified)

Hi,

Remarkable response, with lots of information.

"Talking about sexual energy or energetics in general is a whole other galaxy that neither Anne nor Betty is even remotely addressing. We're just talking about the physical body here. I study energy, sexual and otherwise, "

Sex is separate from energy. Curious idea. I have known several distinctively 'non-tantric' (at a formal level) people who are wired to cum through thought, consideration, happiness only. I suspect they are only demonstrating what we lesser mortals are hiding from ourselves.

Please see my earlier reply to A.U. about 'impact.' No I am not talking about giant, man-jack pounding. And I am not ruling out the knot as a focal point. I'm saying that the clit goes all the way around, and to anathematize 'vaginal' orgasm as a myth strikes me as untenable as to ignore the clitoral knot.

I swear to goddess, I would quit using the word 'tantra' - but the subtle energy of arousal is too important at an evolutionary level to keep being shuttled into a specialized, ritual-driven ghetto.

So, as chief Bobo and Bottlewasher, I'll just keep thinking and talking, thank you...

Expressively,

M

Oh cum now, ladies.

Thu, 07/30/2009 - 00:34
Anonymous User (not verified)

No need to pit the clitty and the g-spot against each other. It's clearly different for everyone. After many years of sexually activity, I now feel that clitoral stimulation on its own (eg. cunnilingus) is FAR inferior to the full, rich sensation of vaginal intercourse. I have sometimes been able to orgasm from intercourse without even the slightest grazing of clitoral stimulation (though some clit stimulation is preferable). Honestly, I think the whole thing is important. Let's not give too much credit to any one tiny location on the body, ok? In my opinion, the whole body is a sex organ. It just happens to apex down there somewhere between the legs. :)

Thank you for assuring me...

Tue, 08/11/2009 - 10:58
SexWorkers NZ Girls (not verified)

I have thought it odd that I never before orgasmed when a man penetrates me. I feared I had a sexual problem and I need a shrink to be whole as a woman. But later, when I have had more experience with lovers, I found the release that I have longed for. I realized that I shouldn't think of my orgasm as something a man gives, but it's something I have to find in myself. Because I opened my whole self to the act, I was able to connect with my partner more deeply - emotionally and mentally as well as physically.

Betty, my SO is like you.

Tue, 10/20/2009 - 23:58
Anonymous (not verified)

Betty, my SO is like you. She climaxes every time I mount her, but only because her hand is palm down on her mons, with middle finger diddling her clit. If she is in a very good mood, and has already come once, she sometimes pulls me into herself using one hand on each of my buttocks. But this happens only a few times a year. Normally, every orgasm she has requires her full digital cooperation.

I have had no difficulty with the clitoral focus of women's sexuality, since learning about the clit in my early teens. Foreplay consists of me playing with her clit glans between my thumb and index finger. 10 minutes of that invariably gets her wet.

My problem is: why do women desire vaginal penetration? That act may be sexually reactionary, but women still very much desire it.

The most blatant thing a woman can do on camera by herself is to part her legs and allow a close up of her clit. Preferably long and hard. Many "amateurs" on the web are able to go this far. Sadly, many women are not made in a way which permits one last beautiful step: slipping the hood back and baring the glans. It is my feeling that Betty played a major part in lifting the bare clit out of the porn sewer.

My feeling is this. Clit

Sat, 01/02/2010 - 10:30
Anonymous (not verified)

My feeling is this. Clit stim leads to great orgasms. Clit slim with vaginal penetration at the same time leads to better orgasms. Combine that with some Kegels and it gets even better. Sometimes I like to break out the toys and lube with my man and focus on having as many fabulous orgasms as possible. Other times I just want him on top of me with little to no foreplay even though I'll look him in the eye and say, "You know I won't come like this so don't bother trying." I view that style of lovemaking as cuddling. Sometimes I even use it as foreplay because I like to feel his erection grow inside of me, then I make him stop and have fun my way. The best part is my husband doesn't feel threatened by having a toy or my fingers accompany his thrusting. He loves watching me come and is probably glad that I've taken the pressure off of him to bring me there.
I guess the key is communication, letting your man know that providing the right stimulation will make his penis seem that much better.

Vaginal Orgasm During Intercourse a hoax?

Thu, 02/25/2010 - 18:55
ORS (not verified)

Thank goodness I found this post. I have been incensed with a web site that I found a few months ago. It is called the Masterful Lover. After loitering there a few months and reading the materials that this man has generated over a period of several years, I am shocked what I have seen. I find this website to contain the most offensive and damaging, male oriented propaganda against female sexuality on the Internet.

This particular web site propagates a litany of men pushing their views and values on women, instructing them how they should be having those vaginal orgasms during intercourse. The owner of the web site proclaims himself as a self made sexual guru who used to be a lame lover to his ex wife, then after she divorced him he went on a sexual quest to discover what women really wanted from men but are afraid to tell them.

He sets about instructing men with overt materials, training other men with several explicit courses on how to manipulate women, by transitioning women from having weak clitoral orgasms apart from intercourse (because women simply do not orgasm in intercourse) to eventually “waking up a a woman’s vagina” so she can eventually be having vaginally stimulated orgasms in intercourse without clitoral stimulation.

This assault on woman’s bodies is not only a physical mandate, he also includes a training program showing men the benefits of using hypnosis on women, indirectly sending subliminal messaging through hypnotic suggestions! There is even an underhanded segment on how to invade a woman’s subconscious hypnotically while she is sleeping to suggest hypnotic impulses to her that she will enjoy giving her man oral sex, anal sex, and enjoying threesomes when he suggests it! This is criminal manipulation in my books!

The moderator and owner of this website responds to emails and publicly posts them to his site in order to demonstrate how men are lame lovers. Most women know that, but as he expels his alleged, vast pleura of knowledge on how to “train” women to respond vaginally, he vehemently tells men - do not touch their clits - because over the years women have unfortunately become "clitorally dependent", and if you want her to orgasm through intercourse her vagina must be “awaked”. He has introduced the new vaginal area for stimulation he calls the "deep spot” which is located along the front and back vaginal wall past where the infamous ‘G’ spot is, which by the way can be stimulated to encourage action from the skenes gland (like the male prostate gland) which causes a woman to “squirt” – in essence female ejaculation.

For example, a man wrote an email to the moderator asking what he should do because his female partner constantly asks him to stimulate her clitoris while they were having intercourse. This moderator advised him boldly with capital letters do not touch her clitoris because you will be fortifying her dependency. Can you imagine being that poor, frustrated and pressured woman!? He also tells men they have to wean women off their vibrators. I suppose this guy would support clitorectomies as well. I can imagine this guys hostility towards women must be a sort of revenge against his long and happily gone ex wife, and all women that do not support his theories.

To add insult to injury, whenever a dim witted woman writes to him about her success story of transitioning from clitoral orgasm to full blown vaginal orgasms (multiple of course), this guy plants it all over his website and uses it to enhance his vaginal orgasm data as a supreme theory.

This harkens back to the archaic dark ages of Freudian misconceptions of the vaginal orgasm not only being the 'mature' way for a woman to enjoy sex, but the owner of the website claims that women are asking for this to be done to them. I would like to tell a man how to have sex and then direct him to try and achieve orgasm simply by having his testicles stimulated for 45 minutes. Let’s see how quickly his orgasm arrives.

When he was challenged in an e-mail by an enlightened individual who brought up the Freudian theory to him, he postured the claim that he did not know much about Freud, ironic because he purports that very theory, but instead he uses as his backup the argument that women are constantly writing to him asking how they can have orgasms through vaginal stimulation only, that women desire this not just men.

I am sick and tired of men telling women how they should have orgasms. The almighty penis is well and at work causing damage to young women everywhere who suffer from ignorance in a society predominantly manipulated by selfish, lazy men who are too indolent, egotistical, and irresponsible to allow women to enjoy sex the way they are physically intended by nature. That is the only function of the clitoris – to give pleasure, yet he tells men to use clitoral stimulation only after their woman has her “vagina awakened”, to use that sort of stimulation as an extra, and alternative method to giving a woman orgasms. I would love to tell this man that his “deep spot” is the underside of the clitoris reached from the vaginal wall. That is something I am certain he knows, only he cannot sell his materials if he says this.

What constantly surprises me are the women who not only actually allow this misinformation to happen, they support the theory. Did we not come out of the dark ages of female sexuality a few decades ago and set the record straight? Did men that not finally learn that the clitoris is the homologous organ to the head of their penis? Are they that selfish and as devious and I believe? Do men feel that threatened by the power of a woman’s sexual nature that they become malignant in their attitude? Is that why they try to force some women back into the cave capitulating under the pretense and guise of wanting to give her pleasure? Even though this moderator admits that, he pushes the vaginal orgasm as the superior means for a woman to climax, why does he not ever discuss that woman CAN orgasm during intercourse with additional clitoral stimulation by a woman herself or her partner, if he can manage it? This infuriates me!

If we propose that men are sexually inconsiderate to begin with, and coupled with ignorance about female anatomy, or a good deal of them blatantly just decided to ignore the proven statistics on how women achieve an orgasm altogether, why do they put so much energy into rewriting anatomical history? Why do they want to turn around and attempt to constantly sabotage our sex by pounding a continuous streamline of hateful male insecurity into their women? Why must they put such pressure on us to orgasm vaginally and make women feel it’s still their fault that they can not orgasm through intercourse? Why must there be blame at all? Sherrie T. Hite put it straight in the ‘Hite Report’ two decades ago. Women can be the author of her own orgasm, why does a man have to 'give' us one? Why the dependency in the first place? Men are the authors of their own orgasm during intercourse, they get theirs by their own movements in a woman's body. Why cant a woman get her own by self stimulation during intercourse? Why is that taboo?

Therefore, because men are dissatisfied with their inability to 'make' women orgasm during intercourse, they turn the tables around and inundate women with a barrage of militant male propaganda to make them feel even worse. I pity the young women everywhere that are suffering with their sexuality and at the mercy of these types of manipulations. Why can women not accept their bodies and a stand up for their rights to enjoy sex as much as any man. Why must we adhere to such archaic thinking? Can we not command respect and thwart those insubordinate accounts of toxic men who support vaginal orgasm theories? I try to tell women as best I can to stand up for their God given privileges and demand better sex from their male counterparts. But when such damaging material like this saturates the media and is all over the Internet, it makes me ill.

Here is an excerpt from that communication between this male moderator of vaginal orgasms during intercourse and an enlighten person (who he calls the skeptic by the way) who challenged him regarding the falsehood of Freudian beliefs.

***EMAIL from Skeptic:

In your article: "Why Vibrators Are Bad" you wrote:

“If you ever expect her to come with you in intercourse from penetration alone, you must stay away from her clitoris, and you must awaken her vagina."

Are you listening to what you are saying here?

How about...If you ever expect him to come with you during
massaging his scrotum, you must stay away from the glans
of his penis, and you must awaken his balls."

Are you really a proponent of Freud? Sounds like it
to me.

>>>MODERATOR COMMENTS:

I understand what you are saying in your analogy. As
for Freud, I have not studied him.But let's talk homologous tissue. The scrotum is homologous to the labia, not the vagina. The adult male does not have homologous tissue to the vagina.

What has been your experience with giving women orgasms? Have they all been clitoral? Have women been non-responsive to vaginal stimulation?

***Skeptic:

Seeing you are so familiar with the homology of men and women's genitals that I am sure you are well aware of the fact that the vagina does not have any pressure sensitive nerve endings.

Yes, my experience is that all orgasm is clitorally based. IF a woman is engorged then this tissue can press against the inner structure of the clitoris including the legs and the nerves connected, through which a woman can experience an orgasm from fxxxking alone.

However, I don't see any benefit in having the goal to wean a woman from direct clitoral stimulation, because the whole concept is male/fxxck oriented which has done nothing but limit the experience of orgasm for men and women.

Freud was the guy who introduced the myth of vaginal orgasm, from which our society has not recovered yet.

>>>MODERATOR COMMENTS:

I understand everything you are saying.

It is true that the legs of the clitoris extend up into either side of the front of the vagina. Stimulating that can be very pleasurable for some woman. Especially at the 1 o'clock and 11 o'clock position of the opening of the vagina.

I have heard quotes of Freud. He said that clitoral orgasms were "immature" and vaginal orgasms were "mature". It is true that women usually have their first orgasm clitorally, and at a fairly young age, and women are usually older when they have their first vaginal orgasm. But calling them "immature" and "mature" is not going to help matters.

He said that women have penis envy. I disagree. I think that women know what they'd do if they had one for a night, and I think women like mens' penises, but women do not want to have a penis, or balls. Women like being women, and they like men being men.

He also said that he never could figure out what women want. What does that say about his knowledge?

As for the whole concept of female vaginal orgasms in intercourse being male/fxxxck oriented, it is true that men are fxxxck oriented. (I expand the repertoire of my clients.) And I have nothing against giving women clitoral orgasms. They're great, and I have a number of techniques for making it spectacular.

But the whole concept of female vaginal orgasms in intercourse is very much a female desire.

Women want to have vaginal orgasms in intercourse. It is not being pushed on them. They do not desire it because someone is telling them that they are less than whole if they don't; women simply want to have vaginal orgasms in intercourse. For women, intercourse is the pinnacle of intimacy. This is true for women who have or don't have orgasms in intercourse. For women, the concept of simultaneous orgasms in intercourse is nirvana.

It is not true that the vagina has no pressure sensitive nerve endings. The vagina most certainly does.

Let's take another example: what about women who cannot have orgasms at all, even from aggressive vibrator stimulation of the clitoris? Would that say that the clitoris has no pressure sensitive nerve endings?

Let's take another example: One of my clients can give his girlfriend an orgasm by kissing his girlfriend's forehead. Another client by rubbing the small of her back. Many of my clients by simply saying "come now." There are dozens of other examples. What does that say? It says that female orgasm is all mental.

The mental aspect of orgasm is easily proven. Take any adult woman and bring her to an R rated stage hypnosis show. 45 minutes into the show, the hypnotist will tell the panel members to have an orgasm, and they will, instantly, men and women. And they are real orgasms.

I honestly don't care if a female orgasm in intercourse is caused by indirect stimulation of the clitoris. I don't care if massaging the deep spot actually stimulates nerve fibers coming from the clitoris. I don't care if stimulating her anus to orgasm is somehow indirectly related to the clitoris. I doubt it, but it doesn't matter. The important thing is that she have an orgasm in intercourse without having to rub her clitoris.

I am not advocating some old beliefs. I have no allegiance to any particular doctrine. I am simply interested in results.

***Skeptic:

Moderator quote: "Female orgasm is all mental."

This is worse than I thought. Comforting to many men though I am sure. I withdraw any attempt to reason with you regarding female orgasm.

>>>MODERATOR COMMENTS:

Well, I guess that conversation is over. It was fun.

This moderator denies the Freudian concept yet he promotes this absurd view up to the point where he says female orgasm is all mental. Of course he would say that because this also promotes his use of needing hypnotism to achieve the goal for women to have vaginal orgasms. He states women can have nipple orgasms and can learn how to “think off” or ‘come on command’ with one of his masterful lover alumni. Naturally, all of these stories of successful vaginal orgasms during intercourse come mostly from males, and we know he pushes hypnotic suggestion as part of his technique. We also know and must admit that women fake climaxes all the time in intercourse to please men. Do you suppose that this is what is going on here? I would love to know the input from this educated panel. Please let me know what you feel about this.

Thanks!

Sure the mind plays a major role

Fri, 02/26/2010 - 07:08

vv

Sure sounds like he wants to make it convenient for the man, when he enables them to have vaginal orgasms. But he also mentions the forehead and small of back.

I'm not a woman but I don't believe that  the no. 1 fantasy is to come from intercourse.

What if you changed it so that making out and kissing would give you orgasms? No need to undress, no lube and can be done anywhere and anytime. Unless you want a baby, of course.

Still, I would be afraid to play with hypnosis, maybe because I'm a chicken.

I imagine you need a lot of mutual  trust, and it would still feel to me like handing the job to an inexperienced programmer to play with my operating system.

One trick this site called http://www.hypnogirls.com/ does is negative suggestion I believe, where the woman is made to believe her clit fell off and now is a coin in the hands of the guy, He can now stimulate her to orgasm whenever he wants and the clit is out of reach for her. Probably the ultimate power trip for the man. Well it's all for the entertainment value, I guess.

Here is a woman doing this hypnosis thing, I believe she uses the back of the hand to induce an orgasm.

http://wendi.com/video/html/the_big_o.html

Annie Sprinkle says she can "think off" an orgasm. Does anybody know how she learned that?

Vaginal orgasm

Tue, 05/01/2012 - 16:04
Vivi S16 (not verified)

I remember a friend of mine (22 years old both of us) telling me she has vaginal orgasms every time she has sex with her partner. So, I asked what she felt during orgasm, and her answer was this: "Oh, the orgasm is the feeling you have when the penis touches the end of your birth canal."!!! I believe that there are many women who believe that they orgasm during partnersex (through penetration, not clit stimulation), but in reality they have never experienced an orgasm! Betty, you are an amazing human being and I really admire your work. Can I just say that I love you? I really do! I accidentally discovered your site only 4 months ago and I visit it everyday, many times, waiting for new posts. Of course, I have read almost EVERY article of yours and watched most of the youtube videos you and Carlin post. Both you and Carlin do an amazing job.
Vivi, Athens, Greece 

Would labeling vaginal orgasms a myth be too strong?

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 09:34

Betty, even though I agree with your analysis, I can't help to think that saying that no woman is able to achieve a vaginal orgasm is probably too strong of a statement.

Anatomy has been more generous with penises because they're more straight forward to study. It's obvious that knowledge about the female sexual anatomy and function is not at par with that of men for whatever reason, and that this may preclude us from specifying with greater clarity what is that women feel when we have sex.

Whenever I look at women's vulvae, I can only marvel at the variety: some women have big inner labia (which I think is fantastic), other women have fat outer labia, and other women barely have anything... And while it's true that every single women could in theory bring herself to orgasm by stimulating her clitoris, wouldn't it be fair to say that the variety of shapes could allow for vaginal orgasms as well?

My understanding is that the clitoris does actually extend inside the vagina, which could give room for the experience of vaginal orgasm through penetration even though this is, in essence, still be a clitoral orgasm.

Dear Olive Skin,

Mon, 02/25/2013 - 12:38

The article was not written by me but by Anne Koedt, a sister feminist. Today I would say that a few women can and do experience orgasm from vaginal penetration when the Internal Clitoris is taken iinto account. However, the very popular G spot that causes some women to squirt is NOT the same thing as an orgasm. We can stop this either/or controversy about female orgasm by simply including both vaginal penetration with clitoral stimulation At the Same Time! This is what I teach in my private sessions, workshops and online.

aren't all orgasms clitoral

Tue, 02/26/2013 - 17:13

For me, vaginal penetration IS clitoral stimulation and just the right amount. I don't think I'm having a vaginal orgasm, just orgasms from indirect clitoral stimulation. I don't enjoy manual or oral stimulation nearly as much -- good for arousal but too direct and almost painful for orgasm. I would add that my husband is intact, which seems to make a difference.

Why isn't there sex ed public health information on this topic?

Mon, 09/02/2013 - 12:40
Renee segal (not verified)

I am a marriage and family therapist and do a lot of sex therapy.  I can't tell you how often women come in explaining that they are faking orgasims to "please" their partners becasue they would hurt his feelings about him not being a good lover.  The only way that men learn what women like is by telling them.  Everytime I see a movie or TV show with a sex scene in which the women gets off by thursting at exactly the same time as her partner it reinforces the myth.  Why isn't there better public health information out there for both women and men.  A lot of what I do in therapy is explain anatomy and provide education.  You have a done an excellent job explaining it here.  I plan to refer clients to your website.  Thank you very much.

Dear Renee, You ask a very important question.

Mon, 09/02/2013 - 15:29

Why doesn't public health organizations and their officails speak out and once and for all to more acurately explain female orgasm in simple easy terms that our youth can understand?

One time I sent a letter to the administrator (forget which Org) and he wrote back saying that while he agreed with my compliant about avoiding a basic subject iike masturbation, he said it was still a controversial subjext and they might loose donations. WELL, translated that means the 1% rich donors who are sexually conservative along with America's Puritanical religous fundamentalists might not give them more money. So once again in America money trumps truth. Surprised? Not really. The porn industry is a multi-billion dollar business and men love it because it keeps sex entertaining instead of factual. Who wants to bother with the female phallus where the clioris is far more powerful than the biggest swinging dick they can find.
So it's up to us and the Internet to continue to get this important sex information out to our young girls and boys.

Betty Dodson

Renee's question and Betty's answer

Mon, 09/02/2013 - 17:46

This is indeed a very important question and I think Betty nailed the answer. There's nothing 'controversial' about accurate information regarding masturbation and orgasm except in the minds of sex-hating religious fanatics and their wealthy supporters. As for the porn industry, this male reader neither loves it nor finds it entertaining.

Betty, what do you suppose it would do to the emotional well-being of young boys if their sex education classes informed them that their sex organs were supposedly vastly inferior to the 'far more powerful' genitals of their female classmates? If the curriculum were based on your opinions, that's exactly what would happen. We need to do all we can to help girls feel good about their bodies and their sexuality, but promoting ideas that would make boys feel worse is not the answer. We need to rid ourselves of the divisive, destructive, and harmfully competitive elements in our society, not add to them.  We don't need any more toxic false dichotomies about who's supposed to be 'superior'. We've been through this for millenia and it's been a disaster for humanity in every case. Let's instead do whatever it takes to help us realize and nurture what we have in common. That's what's going to heal the world.

You can't point and piss :)

Mon, 09/02/2013 - 18:14

That's a superpower a clit doesn't have. Not without special attachments :)
We're discovering femininity right now and that's amazing! Betty's video was great but the clit rodeo was the 1st time I appreciated properly in 3D the size and shape of the full clitty.
I agree with Patrick, we should appreciate what we have in common and also appreciate our diversity. I think public health organisations are becoming obsolete, when we're dropping Scarleteen links all over the place and anyone can search for info online. Yay for the net!

Oh Patrick, you can be such a pain in the ass at times.

Mon, 09/02/2013 - 18:41

You ask, "Betty, what do you suppose it would do to the emotional well-being of young boys if their sex education classes informed them that their sex organs were supposedly vastly inferior to the 'far more powerful' genitals of their female classmates?"

First off, that's jumping to one big fat conclusion that it would destroy these poor little defensless boys. How do you suppose women have survived centuris of being told we're helpless creatures who need a man to support and protect us? Or how women feel when they are led to believe they should be able to orgasm from vaginal penetration by the almighty penis? Most of us fake orgasm so we don't hurt your goddamn feelings! If women have survived centuries with a double sexual standard, I figure men will survive a little truth about the source of this double standard. It's because men really are the second sex. Get over it!

It's all good

Mon, 09/02/2013 - 19:45

I don't think a penis is vastly better or vastly inferior to a clit. It's just different. I love easily accessed powerful short orgasms, but because I can't have a 4 hour masturbation multiple  orgasm orgy, it's not gonna ruin my life :) It's pretty amazing for people who can do that though. Equality is a mutual appreciation of diversity. Feminism for me is not a threat but a wonderful discovery of all things feminine that haven't been included in it's previous hideously constricted definition. 

Kids can learn to love what genitals they have and enjoy their uniqueness. It's all good. 

Betty, come on now . . .

Tue, 09/03/2013 - 14:23

Not so long ago, men's brains were held to be 'far more powerful' than women's for mathematics, science, and logical thinking. This was supposed to be such an obvious 'fact' that almost nobody questioned it for centuries. We're still trying to overcome the damage done to girls and women by these pernicious lies. This is what happens when such claims---and claims such as yours---become enshrined in a culture as 'truth': they create incalculable damage to the people on the receiving end---to their sense of self-worth, to their beliefs in what they can achieve.

Having grown up as a woman in a culture that did such damage to you, are you really theoretically okay with seeing the same kind of thing done to boys? You seem to have absorbed the cultural falsehood that there must always be a class of superior people who are just naturally better and more deserving. Look at the world that's resulted from such ideas! Transposing the 'superior human being' from male to female is hardly going to help. Creating a new mythology of 'superiors' and 'inferiors' only perpetuates the kind of thinking that was used to hold women back for so long. It's a mistake to divide people like this. You're in a position of great influence. What you say matters, and it can affect people for better or worse.

Got To Add This......

Tue, 09/03/2013 - 19:35
ORS (not verified)

The problem seems to be that although there is a plethora of credible information out there on female sexuality.......written by women to help women......men don't read it. They prefer to rely on mostly misinformed, male oriented fantasy, rely on porno for a sub base, overinflated peer knowledge, or base their experience of female sexuality upon male based written and produced dogma on what they think women need in bed. To answer that age old question of "What do women want!" I would answer - ORGASMS! And a lot more respect and understanding in and out of the bedroom.

I personally can say that women are far more sexual than the average man would imagine. Unfortunately, from suffering years of frustration both physically and emotionally, they shut down. Then once they do that, they are labeled frigid - another male oriented way to skirt the real issue. How many decades and partners would a man go through if they knew every single time they engaged in sexual intercourse......nothing happened to sexually satisfy them? Would they stick it out for twenty years to make good on all the "closeness" they felt with their partner? I don't think an appetite for sex would linger very long. Resentment and anger would develop.

Now I happen to love men, in spite of the dicy sexual past experiences in my life. A lot of guys try to get it, but they trust the wrong resources! I would never ask a woman what a man likes in bed....how the heck does she know? The equipment as well as mental nature is different. Viva la difference, but we are terrible as a species of getting it right! Men are horny and clueless, and women are ignorant of their own bodies relying on men to satisfy them! It's all screwy...pardon the pun.

For the women who try to educate guys and fail because of their own fears of rejection or poor self esteem, or has an insensitive lout as a partner...its devastating. Even when you try to save men's feelings by staying quiet and then lying to them about how sex with them "rocked" your world, its a terrible and debilitating feeling for the woman's spirit and self respect. I have met men that once they found out it wasn't happening the way they thought it was.....I was dumped and flatly told to go 'find somebody else who could get me off' and then split in a pompous huff. The male ego is far too fragile to handle the real truth, their sexual education is wired all wrong, and many men don't really care that much at all about a woman's sexual fulfillment as long as they are satisfied. A lot of guys profess they do care about a woman's pleasure in the sac, but use that ploy to initially look like a real catch, but after the lady is hooked, its business as usual. A woman on the fringe of several of those types of relationships in a row is undoubtedly jaded. Many become bitter and give up altogether. They prostitute themselves out for monetary support, a family with children, but always want.......it's an empty feeling that isolates a woman's genuine warmth and heart.

I feel so bad for young women. The Internet is rank with teenagers and young adult women that are confused, frustrated and angry. Many are baffled why they are not having vaginal orgasms galore by movie standards, and their mothers and girlfriends probably don't have a clue either when asked! Half the time if they do have a bit of sexual success, what works for one woman may not work for another, so ultimately the propensity for spreading false information flies once again and is secured. Women need to get over the media and social stigmas of being a second class citizen to having fulfilling sex. They need to become familiar with their own bodies first and then teach it to their man....for men usually come to the table with their own bag of tricks that they think is the best rule of thumb, because most all women he's had sex with have been faking it! Try to tell a virile man that pumps like a rabid rabbit for two minutes expecting a lady to achieve instant orgasm. However, unless a guy can put away all those prior misconceptions of what he's learned, it is next to impossible to achieve harmony.

I don't believe sexual fulfillment can occur unless couples are in a long term, committed relationship and both parties are honest. Nowadays with hook-ups being the main bill of fare, I cannot see much happening for the ladies. Standards of relationships have lowered and women are selling themselves too short, and the guys getting all this 'no strings attached' booty.....may think they are benefitting, but sadly they are missing out on the bigger picture. Our society has decayed to such an extent, I often wonder if sperm banks and dildos and full time jobs are enough for women. Men need to get out of their selfishness and really show a lady you care about them, in every respect. If you did that - ladies would give you the world.......

female superiority

Wed, 09/04/2013 - 12:55

I would remind you, Patrick, that Ashley Montagu wrote a book many decades ago titled The Natural Superiority of Women. I don't think Montagu's work or Betty's claims of female sexual superiority would ever have the effect you seem to be anxious about.

It is laughable even imagining a day when boys feel sexually inferior to girls. We live in a patriarchal culture which, from birth, tells girls they are lesser beings. If you can't understand why women, or black people, or gays, or the polyamorous, need to thump their chests occasionally, you must possess little empathy with those who are not white, male, heterosexual, monogamous, American and middle-class.

ORS - THANK YOU!!!

Wed, 09/04/2013 - 14:45
Dotty (not verified)

Great post. I so much agree with you. Love. 

Empathy and superiority

Wed, 09/04/2013 - 16:30

I remember Ashley Montagu's book, Tobysgirl. Yes, I have some understanding of why those who have been put down need to assert themselves in order to counteract the negatives they've heard all their lives. I do think that this needs to be done in ways that are respectful of others. Empathy is pretty much a pre-requisite for caring about other people. For my career, I chose a helping profession that is overwhelmingly female (80%), and relatively low-paid. The clients I worked with were overwhelmingly poor and were predominantly people of color. If my sympathies were with the rich white male ruling class I could have become an investment banker.

I'd like to see a world in which the dominant values are compassion, acceptance of differences, and equitable treatment of all. I believe that assertions of superiority, while often understandable, are a reaction to the kind of hierarchical thinking that created ruling classes, a system in which somebody always has to be 'above' somebody else. Since I don't believe that any kind of hierarchy is justified, I think that claims of superiority are a step in the wrong direction and only arise because that's how we've all been taught to think by our culture. If some people need to think in 'superior-inferior' terms until we have a truly equitable society I can understand that, but I believe that one day we'll evolve past the need to classify ourselves like this.

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