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The Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm by Anne Koedt

After I read the article below by Anne Koedt in 1970, I was thrilled and made a cold call hoping to meet and discuss how we could collaborate. Although Anne was suspicious of me over the phone, once she was sure of my feminist credentials, she set up an appointment. During our visit, she explained that after receiving so much hate mail and a death threat as a result of her article, she was going to disappear. She had just begun a new relationship with a man she loved and didn't want to jeopardize their future with feminist politics. I picked up where she left off to carry the clitoral banner. I'm thrilled to be republishing Anne's piece here:
by Anne Koedt
Whenever female orgasm and frigidity are discussed, a false distinction is made between the vaginal and the clitoral orgasm. Frigidity has generally been defined by men as the failure of women to have vaginal orgasms. Actually the vagina is not a highly sensitive area and is not constructed to achieve orgasm. It is the clitoris which is the center of sexual sensitivity and which is the female equivalent of the penis.
I think this explains a great many things: First of all, the fact that the so-called frigidity rate among women is phenomenally high. Rather than tracing female frigidity to the false assumptions about female anatomy, our "experts" have declared frigidity a psychological problem of women. Those women who complained about it were recommended psychiatrists, so that they might discover their "problem" -diagnosed generally as a failure to adjust to their role as women.
The facts of female anatomy and sexual response tell a different story. Although there are many areas for sexual arousal, there is only one area for sexual climax; that area is the clitoris. All orgasms are extensions of sensation from this area. Since the clitoris is not necessarily stimulated sufficiently in the conventional sexual positions, we are left "frigid."
Aside from physical stimulation, which is the common cause of orgasm for most people, there is also stimulation through primarily mental processes. Some women, for example, may achieve orgasm through sexual fantasies, or through fetishes. However, while the stimulation may be psychological, the orgasm manifests itself physically. Thus, while the cause is psychological, the effect is still physical, and the orgasm necessarily takes place in the sexual organ equipped for sexual climax, the clitoris. The orgasm experience may also differ in degree of intensity - some more localized, and some more diffuse and sensitive. But they are all clitoral orgasms.
All this leads to some interesting questions about conventional sex and our role in it. Men have orgasms essentially by friction with the vagina, not the clitoral area, which is external and not able to cause friction the way penetration does. Women have thus been defined sexually in terms of what pleases men; our own biology has not been properly analyzed. Instead, we are fed the myth of the liberated woman and her vaginal orgasm - an orgasm which in fact does not exist.
What we must do is redefine our sexuality. We must discard the "normal" concepts of sex and create new guidelines which take into account mutual sexual enjoyment. While the idea of mutual enjoyment is liberally applauded in marriage manuals, it is not followed to its logical conclusion. We must begin to demand that if certain sexual positions now defined as "standard" are not mutually conducive to orgasm, they no longer be defined as standard. New techniques must be used or devised which transform this particular aspect of our current sexual exploitation.
Freud - Father of the Vaginal Orgasm: Freud contended that the clitoral orgasm was adolescent, and that upon puberty, when women began having intercourse with men, women should transfer the center of orgasm to the vagina. The vagina, it was assumed, was able to produce a parallel, but more mature, orgasm than the clitoris. Much work was done to elaborate on this theory, but little was done to challenge the basic assumptions.
To fully appreciate this incredible invention, perhaps Freud's general attitude about women should first be recalled. Mary Ellman, in Thinking About Women, summed it up this way: Everything in Freud's patronizing and fearful attitude toward women follows from their lack of a penis, but it is only in his essay "The Psychology of Women" that Freud makes explicit... the deprecations of women which are implicit in his work. He then prescribes for them the abandonment of the life of the mind, which will interfere with their sexual function. When the psycho-analyzed patient is male, the analyst sets himself the task of developing the man's capacities; but with women patients, the job is to resign them to the limits of their sexuality. As Mr. Rieff puts it, "For Freud, analysis cannot encourage in women new energies for success and achievement, but only teach them the lesson of rational resignation."
It was Freud's feelings about women's secondary and inferior relationship to men that formed the basis for his theories on female sexuality. Once having laid down the law about the nature of our sexuality, Freud not so strangely discovered a tremendous problem of frigidity in women. His recommended cure for a woman who was frigid was psychiatric care. She was suffering from failure to mentally adjust to her "natural" role as a woman. Frank S. Caprio, a contemporary follower of these ideas, states: "...whenever a woman is incapable of achieving an orgasm via coitus, provided the husband is an adequate partner, and prefers clitoral stimulation to any other form of sexual activity, she can be regarded as suffering from frigidity and requires psychiatric assistance." (The Sexually Adequate Female, p.64.)
The explanation given was that women were envious of men - renunciation of womanhood. Thus it was diagnosed as an anti-male phenomenon. It is important to emphasize that Freud did not base his theory upon a study of woman's anatomy, but rather upon his assumptions of woman as an inferior appendage to man, and her consequent social and psychological role. In their attempts to deal with the ensuing problem of mass frigidity, Freudians embarked on elaborate mental gymnastics. Marie Bonaparte, in Female Sexuality, goes so far as to suggest surgery to help women back on their rightful path. Having discovered a strange connection between the non-frigid woman and the location of the clitoris near the vagina,
"It then occurred to me that where, in certain women, this gap was excessive, and clitoral fixation obdurate, a clitoral-vaginal reconciliation might be effected by surgical means, which would then benefit the normal erotic function. Professor Halban, of Vienna, as much a biologist as surgeon, became interested in the problem and worked out a simple operative technique. In this, the suspensory ligament of the clitoris was severed and the clitoris secured to the underlying structures, thus fixing it in a lower position, with eventual reduction of the labia minora. (p.148.)
But the severest damage was not in the area of surgery, where Freudians ran around absurdly trying to change female anatomy to fit their basic assumptions. The worst damage was done to the mental health of women, who either suffered silently with self-blame or flocked to psychiatrists looking desperately for the hidden and terrible repression that had kept from them their vaginal destiny.
Lack of Evidence: One may perhaps at first claim that these are unknown and unexplored areas, but upon closer examination this is certainly not true today, nor was it true even in the past. For example, men have known that women suffered from frigidity often during intercourse. So the problem was there. Also, there is much specific evidence. Men knew that the clitoris was and is the essential organ for masturbation, whether in children or adult women. So obviously women made it clear where they thought their sexuality was located. Men also seem suspiciously aware of the clitoral powers during "foreplay," when they want to arouse women and produce the necessary lubrication for penetration. Foreplay is a concept created for male purposes, but works to the disadvantage of many women, since as soon as the woman is aroused the man changes to vaginal stimulation, leaving her both aroused and unsatisfied. It has also been known that women need no anesthesia inside the vagina during surgery, thus pointing to the fact that the vagina is in fact not a highly sensitive area.
Today, with extensive knowledge of anatomy, with Kelly, Kinsey, and Masters and Johnson, to mention just a few sources, there is no ignorance on the subject. There are, however, social reasons why this knowledge has not been popularized. We are living in a male society which has not sought change in women's role.
Anatomical Evidence: Rather than starting with what women ought to feel, it would seem logical to start out with the anatomical facts regarding the clitoris and vagina. The Clitoris is a small equivalent of the penis, except for the fact that the urethra does not go through it as in the man's penis. Its erection is similar to the male erection, and the head of the clitoris has the same type of structure and function as the head of the penis. C. Lombard Kelly, in Sexual Feeling in Married Men and Women, says: "The head of the clitoris is also composed of erectile tissue, and it possesses a very sensitive epithelium or surface covering, supplied with special nerve endings called genital corpuscles, which are peculiarly adapted for sensory stimulation that under proper mental conditions terminates in the sexual orgasm. No other part of the female generative tract has such corpuscles." (Pocketbooks; p.35.) The clitoris has no other function than that of sexual pleasure.
The Vagina - Its functions are related to, the reproductive function. Principally, 1) menstruation, 2) receive penis, 3) hold semen, and 4) birth passage. The interior of the vagina, which according to the defenders of the vaginally caused orgasm is the center and producer of the orgasm, is: Like nearly all other internal body structures, poorly supplied with end organs of touch. The internal entodermal origin of the lining of the vagina makes it similar in this respect to the rectum and other parts of the digestive tract. (Kinsey, Sexual Behavior in the Human Female, p.580.)
The degree of insensitivity inside the vagina is so high that "Among the women who were tested in our gynecologic sample, less than 14% were at all conscious that they had been touched." (Kinsey, p. 580.)
Even the importance of the vagina as an erotic center (as opposed to an orgasmic center) has been found to be minor. Other Areas - Labia minora and the vestibule of the vagina. These two sensitive areas may trigger off a clitoral orgasm. Because they can be effectively stimulated during "normal" coitus, though infrequently, this kind of stimulation is incorrectly thought to be vaginal orgasm. However, it is important to distinguish between areas which can stimulate the clitoris, incapable of producing the orgasm themselves, and the clitoris: " Regardless of what means of excitation is used to bring the individual to the state of sexual climax, the sensation is perceived by the genital corpuscles and is localized where they are situated: in the head of the clitoris or penis." (Kelly, p.49.)
Psychologically Stimulated Orgasm: Aside from the above mentioned direct and indirect stimulation of the clitoris, there is a third way an orgasm may be triggered. This is through mental (cortical) stimulation, where the imagination stimulates the brain, which in turn stimulates the genital corpuscles of the glans to set off an orgasm.
Women Who Say They Have Vaginal Orgasms: Confusion - Because of the lack of knowledge of their own anatomy, some women accept the idea that an orgasm felt during "normal" intercourse was vaginally caused. This confusion is caused by a combination of two factors. One, failing to locate the center of the orgasm, and two, by a desire to fit her experience to the male-defined idea of sexual normalcy. Considering that women know little about their anatomy, it is easy to be confused.
Deception: The vast majority of women who pretend vaginal orgasm to their men are faking it to "get the job." In a new bestselling Danish book, I Accuse, Mette Ejlersen specifically deals with this common problem, which she calls the "sex comedy." This comedy has many causes. First of all, the man brings a great deal of pressure to bear on the woman, because he considers his ability as a lover at stake. So as not to offend his ego, the woman will comply with the prescribed role and go through simulated ecstasy. In some of the other Danish women mentioned, women who were left frigid were turned off to sex, and pretended vaginal orgasm to hurry up the sex act. Others admitted that they had faked vaginal orgasm to catch a man. In one case, the woman pretended vaginal orgasm to get him to leave his first wife, who admitted being vaginally frigid. Later she was forced to continue the deception, since obviously she couldn't tell him to stimulate her clitorally.
Many more women were simply afraid to establish their right to equal enjoyment, seeing the sexual act as being primarily for the man's benefit, and any pleasure that the woman got as an added extra. Other women, with just enough ego to reject the man's idea that they needed psychiatric care, refused to admit their frigidity. They wouldn't accept self-blame, but they didn't know how to solve the problem, not knowing the physiological facts about themselves. So they were left in a peculiar limbo.
Again, perhaps one of the most infuriating and damaging results of this whole charade has been that women who were perfectly healthy sexually were taught that they were not. So in addition to being sexually deprived, these women were told to blame themselves when they deserved no blame. Looking for a cure to a problem that has none can lead a woman on an endless path of self-hatred and insecurity. For she is told by her analyst that not even in her one role allowed in a male society - the role of a woman - is she successful. She is put on the defensive, with phony data as evidence that she'd better try to be even more feminine, think more feminine, and reject her envy of men. That is, shuffle even harder, baby.
Why Men Maintain the Myth:
# 1. Sexual Penetration Is Preferred: The best physical stimulant for the penis is the woman's vagina. It supplies the necessary friction and lubrication. From a strictly technical point of view this position offers the best physical conditions, even though the man may try other positions for variation.
# 2. The Invisible Woman: One of the elements of male chauvinism is the refusal or inability to see women as total, separate human beings. Rather, men have chosen to define women only in terms of how they benefited men's lives. Sexually, a woman was not seen as an individual wanting to share equally in the sexual act, any more than she was seen as a person with independent desires when she did anything else in society. Thus, it was easy to make up what was convenient about women; for on top of that, society has been a function of male interests, and women were not organized to form even a vocal opposition to the male experts.
# 3. The Penis as Epitome of Masculinity: Men define their lives primarily in terms of masculinity. It is a universal form of ego-boosting. That is, in every society, however homogeneous (i.e., with the absence of racial, ethnic, or major economic differences) there is always a group, women, to oppress.
The essence of male chauvinism is in the psychological superiority men exercise over women. This kind of superior - inferior definition of self, rather than positive definition based upon one's own achievements and development, has of course chained victim and oppressor both. But by far the most brutalized of the two is the victim.
An analogy is racism, where the white racist compensates for his feelings of unworthiness by creating an image of the black man (it is primarily a male struggle) as biologically inferior to him. Because of his position in a white male power structure, the white man can socially enforce this mythical division.
To the extent that men try to rationalize and justify male superiority through physical differentiation, masculinity may be symbolized by being the most muscular, the most hairy; having the deepest voice, and the biggest penis. Women, on the other hand, are approved of (i.e., called feminine) if they are weak, petite, shave their legs, and have high soft voices.
Since the clitoris is almost identical to the penis, one finds a great deal of evidence of men in various societies trying to either ignore the clitoris and emphasize the vagina (as did Freud), or, as in some places in the Middle East, actually performing clitoraldectomy, Freud saw this ancient and still practiced custom as a way of further "feminizing" the female by removing this cardinal vestige of her masculinity. It should be noted also that a big clitoris is considered ugly and masculine. Some cultures engage in the practice of pouring a chemical on the clitoris to make it shrivel up into "proper" size.
It seems clear to me that men in fact fear the clitoris as a threat to masculinity.
# 4. Sexually Expendable Male: Men fear that they will become sexually expendable if the clitoris is substituted for the vagina as the center of pleasure for women. Actually this has a great deal of validity if one considers only the anatomy. The position of the penis inside the vagina, while perfect for reproduction does not necessarily stimulate an orgasm in women because the clitoris is located externally and higher up. Women must rely upon indirect stimulation in the "normal" position.
Lesbian sexuality could make an excellent case, based upon anatomical data, for the irrelevancy of the male organ. Albert Ellis says something to the effect that a man without a penis can make a woman an excellent lover.
Considering that the vagina is very desirable from a man's point of view, purely on physical grounds, one begins to see the dilemma for men. And it forces us as well to discard many "physical" arguments explaining why women go to bed with men. What is left, it seems to me, are primarily psychological reasons why women select men at the exclusion of women as sexual partners.
# 5. Control o/ Women: One reason given to explain the Mid-eastern practice of clitoraldectomy is that it will keep the women from straying. By removing the sexual organ capable of orgasm, it must be assumed that her sexual drive will diminish. Considering how men look upon their women as property, particularly in very backward nations, we should begin to consider a great deal more why it is not in men's interest to have women totally free sexually. The double standard, as practiced for example in Latin America, is set up to keep the woman as total property of the husband, while he is free to have affairs as he wishes.
# 6. Lesbianism and Bisexuality: Aside from the strictly anatomical reasons why women might equally seek other women as lovers, there is a fear on men's part that women will seek the company of other women on a full, human basis. The recognition of clitoral orgasm as fact would threaten the heterosexual institution. For it would indicate that sexual pleasure was obtainable from either men or women, thus making heterosexuality not an absolute, but an option. It would open up the whole question of human sexual relationships beyond the confines of the present male-female role system.
Betty responds further: In my 1974 book Liberating Masturbation: a Meditation on Selflove that I had to self-publish as no one else would, my statement on female frigidity is in the chapter titled: "Becoming Cunt Positive." I stated the following:
"Masturbation finally puts an end to the concept of frigidity. If a woman can stimulate her clitoris to orgasm she is orgasmic and sexually healthy. "Frigid" is a man's word for a woman who cannot have an orgasm in the missionary position in five minutes with the kind of stimulation that's only good for him."
Looking back over our feminist sex history, it is clear how women have been sidetracked by books like "Coital Alignment" for vaginal orgasms. Or Helen Kaplan who is revered by sex therapists and whose book I illustrated. I pleaded with her to include a drawing of a woman stimulating her own clitoris during intercourse as that was how I was having orgasms at the time. The illustration made it into her book, but she added the following caption: "In this version the woman stimulates herself to a point just prior to orgasm, and then the couple commences thrusting vigorously, thereby bringing her to climax." The penis reigned supreme once again.
Just as seventies feminists were reinstating the clitoris, the eighties introduced the G-spot orgasm which had everyone diving back inside the vagina. These orgasms were triggered by pressure on the ceiling of the vagina which I originally described as the "back side of the clitoris." Following that there were New Age climaxes such as "Breath Orgasms" and "Energy Orgasms." None of these required any clitoral or vaginal contact at all. We now have the C-spot orgasm (cervical pressure) and the D-spot orgasm from the cul-de-sac of the vagina, and the A-spot orgasm (ceiling of the vagina about an inch or more behind the G-spot). These mysterious vaginal spots all respond to pressure as society desperately tries to sustain the myth of the vaginal orgasm.
No one seems to notice that these "spots" are best dealt with using fingers. In other words, a guy no longer needs to get and keep an erection to give his woman a vaginal orgasm. Oh really? One of my speculations is that the birth canal is where we all came from so many men (as well as some women) simply wanted to get back inside Mommy. Meanwhile the clitoris continues to be ignored, devalued and made suspect by both men and brain washed women who want to appear sexy and feminine while they expertly fake passion during intercourse, especially with a hard fuck that's now seen as the height of masculine desire thanks to all the online porn.
I've lived through all of this vaginal madness and I clearly remember those few times in my youth when I could come from intercourse alone. Glory, hallelujah, I was a mature woman at last! The fact that I was getting indirect clit stim as he played at the opening of my vagina with his uncircumcised dick wasn't factored in. At the moment I was really turned on, I'd ask permission to get on top. Then I hunkered down and fucked him until I came. Of course we did sex the same way every time or it wouldn't work.
At the age of 35 and recently divorced, Grant Taylor entered my life. He had read every book available on sex. He healed my imagined genital deformity. I believed my dangling inner lips had been stretched by excessive childhood masturbation. He also added delicate clitoral stimulation during intercourse with his moistened fingers. After the sexual part of our affair ended, he spent the rest of his life aiding and supporting my efforts to speak out about female sexuality, masturbation and the clitoris as a woman's primary sex organ. I'll always be grateful he entered my life. Our 43 year collaboration has become even more precious with his absence these past two years. Some days I can mentally hear him criticizing a sentence I've written or challenging a concept. He would love the website we have today that he set up for me in 1998, especially my Genital Art Gallery. Grant was a "Connoisseur of Cunts" and a clit hound. I gladly carry on his tradition.
In Anne Koedt's own words, "...perhaps one of the most infuriating and damaging results of this whole charade has been that women who were perfectly healthy sexually were taught that they were not. So in addition to being sexually deprived, these women were told to blame themselves when they deserved no blame. Looking for a cure to a problem that has none can lead a woman on an endless path of self-hatred and insecurity."
In all the forty-some years I've taught women about orgasm, the same problems exist now as then. Childhood masturbation was punished or inhibited. The same as me forty years ago, women don't like their genitals and they don't understand their own sexual anatomy. Many have never seen their clitoris and they can't find their G-spots and "squirt" to please a lover. They continue to fear vibrator addiction and long to come from a lover's touch. Or better yet, they want to learn how to come during intercourse.
Forget Ensler's Vagina Warriors. When women claim the Clitoris as our rightful sex organ of pleasure, we can end the war between the sexes. Orgasmic women will heal us from all the lies we've been told. Once liberated, people can end America's wars of aggression as our number one form of business. Pleasure belongs to all people.
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Preach it Sister
I have never read a more thorough and thoughtful analysis of this subject. Ms. Koedt's article with Betty's addition should be spread across the internet! Every young woman should read it. And wait-every young man! I have never made the connection that if women should have vaginal orgasms, then why did the practice of female circumcision develop? They knew all along it was our source of pleasure. I agree this obsession with the G-spot these days has hurt some young women. One more spot that we have to worry about. And one more way to make a man lazy, and ask "did you come?" thinking he could reach that G-spot with his mighty cock!
Thank you so much for this!! Spread the word!!
Brilliant and informative
Thanks so much for posting this Betty; both Anne Koedt's article and your response should be required reading in every secondary school. The links between feminist perspectives, cultural theory, racism and the need for evidence in scientific discourse, are so often missed in discussions about sex and only seem to surface through voices that are mostly deemed too radical for general public consumption.
Over the last couple of years I've been reading bell hooks, re-reading Greer's superb Sex and Destiny and getting aquainted with Edward Said. I've always had a bee in my bonnet about power-relations, and how power shapes politics: and the older I get the more convinced I become that my apparantly naive view that ultimately it's all about power is correct. Yet saying that now seems even more radical than it did in the 1970s; the international powers of the military industrial complex having since entrenched themselves more fully as the cultural force controlling the ubiquitous global economy.
While, in the US, Obama might have slid the agenda slightly leftwards, it seems that in Europe the movement is in the opposite direction; the needs of the global economy outweighing everything in the formualation of our national curricula and the range of courses promoted by our universities and their sponsors.
Such disconnected assumptions, so wonderfully dispatched by your post, are even affecting the ways in which World Development is being taught. That most vital of interdisciplinary subjects having been emasculated by business interests at the expense of rational exposition. With the planet in such deep trouble, we now need the logic of left-wing feminist positions even more - as no amount of orgasms will halt climate change without the existing power structures being challenged. Indeed, the retreat into hedonism might even slow change further, particularly when eroticism is controlled by the fat cats of the pornography industry with the aim of supplying the me-me-me generation with a constant supply of distraction and atomistic desire.
best wishes
Chu
Arguably the best essay ever witten!
This remarkable explanation should be in sex education textbooks.
Brilliant!
Dear Betty,
I'm printing this one out for my kids. I have always wondered if the difference between men and women in reaching orgasm is the basis for most of the problems of this world. More heterosexual women need to be honest with each other about the fact that "normal" intercourse just doesn't feel that good. The myth of the vaginal orgasm goes along with the myth that women are not visually stimulated. I am very visually stimulated if I have something nice to look at. As a young teenager, I was turned on by drawings of Native American men in history books. They were hot!!!!
Peace
Safa
Just where did I put that darn clitoris, anyway?
Dear Dame Dodson,
As much as I love and respect your vivacity (vulvacity?) and courage, it seems to me that the internal/external argument about orgasm is something of a straw dog. I just put this on EF's planetwaves website in reply to the issue:
"This reminds me of Larry Durrell’s phrase: choice young cliterocrats.
"The nerves of what we call the clit wrap around the top of the vagina, forming a wishbone pattern, the ‘legs’ ending just a few millimeters from the sacrum. These nerves meet in the front of the vulva, tying themselves into that neat little knot.
"There are two principle things that happen during the fuck: one is that both ‘legs’ of the wishbone are stimulated, the other has to do with the joints at the hips and symphysis pubis - when they are ‘jarred’ by the impact of intercourse, they release the structure held a certain way by our bipedal habits. This alters our awareness of the duality that our body demonstrates. I won’t say that it eliminates it, but it is reduced.
"Add to this stim of that topknot and you have quite a party. The cool thing about women’s sexuality is that we are built to move subtle sexual energy as it comes in (from the tip toward the sacrum) or out (from the wishbones to the tip). This is the main reason that every single tantra in the world begins with the declaration that all women are goddesses. We aren’t vertical in our sexuality, we’re circular.
"In other words: masturbation is lovely *and* the clitoris can also be stimulated through intercourse. Mary Roach (author of Bonk!) talks about how cool it is that pigs have an internal clit. Well, actually, so do we all."
Your humble reader,
Mysti Easterwood
Tantra for Bobos (in progress)
Not helping.
Mysti, thanks for your analysis of "Larry's" writings. When "Larry" has a clit, I will listen. The issue is not a "straw dog" because Betty is writing for the majority of women who have been oppressed, and shamed, and been uneducated, and continue to be. She is speaking to the political, the economic, the social forces in our world. She is not speaking to the very small population of people who practice Tantric Sex, and isn't speaking to biology and physiology alone. She is trying to get the word out there, because as she said, she has been answering the same question for 30 years, and it's time for answers.
I would invite "Larry" to come to my house, thrust away at me, and try to make me cum. Then, I'll take it all back.
on indirect clitoral orgasm
Planning on writing a response to both Anne and Betty's info. My current beliefs and findings. In response to Mysti, you use the word "impact". I'm going to assume you're implying the style of fuck in this case is a fast and hard thrust where the penetrating partner's pelvis is impacting with enough force against where the clitoral legs are positioned that they get a momentary jolt of pleasurable sensation at the moment of impact. While it is true that this is pleasurable for women, to one degree or another depending on her bodytype and the precise angle that this is happening on, it is not nearly as consistently orgasmic across the majority of womankind as direct stimulation of the glans clitoris is.
Further, the penetrating partner will have to go fast enough and hard enough over time to get her there with any consistency. The momentary jolts of pleasure must come close enough one after the other to steadily drive a woman to her orgasm and even then it isn't always successful. Add to that the stamina and muscular development that the penetrating partner has to have, plus the penetrating partner's weight slamming against her at speed (greater impact the heavier something is when it moves at speed) as compared to the woman and her body structure. What that means is even if the pen.partner can fuck hard enough and long enough, (he'd better be breathing like a jogger in any event) if his mass in motion does not make significant enough impact on the woman (and the legs of the clitoris/pelvis/uterus) then it may feel erotic to her, psychologically and physically, but she will soon realize it's not enough impact stimulation for her to come that way no matter how long he does it. Now, if she could integrate direct glans clitoris stimulation into that, where that stroking/vibing and the pounding sensations combine, she may well, and more consistently, blow her head off with a big orgasm.
To conclude, yeah, it's -possible- for some women under certain physical circumstances with certain partners to have an orgasm from JUST the legs of the clitoris (and the uterus and pelvic structure) being impacted. The problem is, it is -not- as consistent a source of orgasm, let alone the intensity of that orgasm, when compared to the direct stimulation of the glans clitoris across the majority of women (and their partners.) Due to this discrepancy in consistency and ease, my professional view is the internal/external argument is quite necessary if we are striving for the highest level of accuracy with moving our sexlives forward.
Now. Talking about sexual energy or energetics in general is a whole other galaxy that neither Anne nor Betty is even remotely addressing. We're just talking about the physical body here. I study energy, sexual and otherwise, and in your tantric path, I urge you to not take it lightly that everything you are told or think you're feeling is accurate. I'm connected to the Tantric community and not everyone out there knows what they're talking about. (Particularly with duality and non-duality.) I like www.tantrapm.com for teachers that are well-grounded and have a commitment to energetic accuracy and integrity in their teachings to the best of their current understanding.
Invoking LD?
Hi A.U...
I just thought Laurence Durrell's neologism was funny - and oddly tender. These aren't his observations (well, he's been dead for over a decade, so who knows - he may have a clit by now) - so let me see if I can walk us back over to my voice.
Focusing on the knot of the clit is fine, but the whole neural complex extends all the way around the base. Hence the 'ache' that appears deeper in the perineum during arousal and orgasm. By 'fuck' I didn't just mean hetero intercourse, any more than 'impact' means vigorous thrusting.
I am saying that the energy of arousal in women circulates. Impact helps set it up so that you can feel this. One way is to extend your legs in front of you, lift your body up on your palms and drop on to your coccyx. You'll feel a jolt of energy fly from your sacrum up to your crown. That doesn't address the fluids and related enzymes in your hip joints, but it's a start.
From what I've been able to tell (with limited experience), fisting --really, we have to find a better word for this!-- also produces similar decoupling of the binary messaging built into the lower extremities. Will say more as I know more. . . *8^D
Playfully yours,
M
assuming the position
Hi,
Remarkable response, with lots of information.
"Talking about sexual energy or energetics in general is a whole other galaxy that neither Anne nor Betty is even remotely addressing. We're just talking about the physical body here. I study energy, sexual and otherwise, "
Sex is separate from energy. Curious idea. I have known several distinctively 'non-tantric' (at a formal level) people who are wired to cum through thought, consideration, happiness only. I suspect they are only demonstrating what we lesser mortals are hiding from ourselves.
Please see my earlier reply to A.U. about 'impact.' No I am not talking about giant, man-jack pounding. And I am not ruling out the knot as a focal point. I'm saying that the clit goes all the way around, and to anathematize 'vaginal' orgasm as a myth strikes me as untenable as to ignore the clitoral knot.
I swear to goddess, I would quit using the word 'tantra' - but the subtle energy of arousal is too important at an evolutionary level to keep being shuttled into a specialized, ritual-driven ghetto.
So, as chief Bobo and Bottlewasher, I'll just keep thinking and talking, thank you...
Expressively,
M
Oh cum now, ladies.
No need to pit the clitty and the g-spot against each other. It's clearly different for everyone. After many years of sexually activity, I now feel that clitoral stimulation on its own (eg. cunnilingus) is FAR inferior to the full, rich sensation of vaginal intercourse. I have sometimes been able to orgasm from intercourse without even the slightest grazing of clitoral stimulation (though some clit stimulation is preferable). Honestly, I think the whole thing is important. Let's not give too much credit to any one tiny location on the body, ok? In my opinion, the whole body is a sex organ. It just happens to apex down there somewhere between the legs. :)
Thank you for assuring me...
I have thought it odd that I never before orgasmed when a man penetrates me. I feared I had a sexual problem and I need a shrink to be whole as a woman. But later, when I have had more experience with lovers, I found the release that I have longed for. I realized that I shouldn't think of my orgasm as something a man gives, but it's something I have to find in myself. Because I opened my whole self to the act, I was able to connect with my partner more deeply - emotionally and mentally as well as physically.
Betty, my SO is like you.
Betty, my SO is like you. She climaxes every time I mount her, but only because her hand is palm down on her mons, with middle finger diddling her clit. If she is in a very good mood, and has already come once, she sometimes pulls me into herself using one hand on each of my buttocks. But this happens only a few times a year. Normally, every orgasm she has requires her full digital cooperation.
I have had no difficulty with the clitoral focus of women's sexuality, since learning about the clit in my early teens. Foreplay consists of me playing with her clit glans between my thumb and index finger. 10 minutes of that invariably gets her wet.
My problem is: why do women desire vaginal penetration? That act may be sexually reactionary, but women still very much desire it.
The most blatant thing a woman can do on camera by herself is to part her legs and allow a close up of her clit. Preferably long and hard. Many "amateurs" on the web are able to go this far. Sadly, many women are not made in a way which permits one last beautiful step: slipping the hood back and baring the glans. It is my feeling that Betty played a major part in lifting the bare clit out of the porn sewer.
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