Betty Dodson with Carlin Ross

Better Orgasms. Better World.

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Agree with all above and would add a university department of sexuality where practitioners could hold tenure and speak and impart their considerable practical knowledge of humanity.  Urologists and Andrologists would learn a huge amount both from the practitioners and being able to observe erections and sexual function in their patients. The simple "is everything working OK now" question just isn't good enough. Yeah that's just one benifit let alone all the knowledge about emotions and peoples real sexual feelings compared to their socialy acceptable mask. They would also need an androsexual input from people like Betty because mostly gynosexuials pay for sex so to go beyond the feelings of the androsexual practitioners themselves Androsexual therapists and researchers would balance the department.   

Prostitution has been decriminalisted in New Zealand for about 7 years now. The sky did not fall in. There has been no change in the number of sex workers. Sex workers are safer. The Occupational Health and Safety rules mean they can insist on condoms. They can take assault claims to the Police and be treated seriously. Still most sex workers are not comfortable about telling their friends and family about their work. There are some rules about who can own a brothel, and where sex services can be advertised (not on TV or radio for instance).  There have been prosecutions by the Police for brothels employing under 18 year olds.
There have been (two I think) reports now by the NZL Government on the effect of the change in legislation and there have been no changes to the laws that were made back then.
All in all a positive experience I think. In Australia we have a much more diverse range of responses and overall I think the New Zealand approach is much better.

I think prostitution should be legalized, from a average jane's point of view I agreed with this article and there is nothing but postive outcomes for this idea and as a business idea its a huge market! and with training and the right procautions to protect the workers and customers,people could explore their fantasies and gain sexual experiance for future partners and bluid confidence and self-esteem.

There's no doubt in my mind that we do have a pleasure-phobic, punitive culture that has its origins in judgmental religious dogma. But I can't agree with some of the rationalizations here. "Capitalism in its purest form" does not strike me as an ethical model for human interrelations.

Mutual exploitation, which is what sex work often is, is not the way human beings ought to treat one another. There do need to be ways to define sexual healers in ways that allow them to pursue their work respectfully and legally. And treating prostitutes as criminals is indeed wrong. Mostly, they're unfortunate people just trying to survive. What they really need most, I believe, are viable options for building a better life for themselves--not additional ways to stay stuck where they are.

I remember reading an article about a BDSM sex worker called Desiree. The point of the article was to show that Desiree was "empowered" rather than exploited. In a harsh way, she was. She seemed to have become the exploiter. Her clients appeared to be largely fearful men she could intimidate, whom she tried to make cum as quickly as possible like an uncaring assembly line. Then they were summarily dismissed to make room for the next john. There is no resemblance whatever between this sort of activity and worthwhile human interaction.

And there is simply no way that "experience" with a bored, indifferent, and often hostile and contemptuous hooker is going to prepare a man to be a better lover. Instead, it will delay his ability to form real intimate relationships, and most likely give him the delusion that he is a great lover every time the hooker fakes it.

We really do need to lose the religiously based hostility to healthy sexuality that is so deeply engrained in our culture. With that said, prostitution in its usual form is not joyful, healthy sexual expression. I read a brief memoir by a former sex worker. She was grateful to the clients that were kind to her. But she was also resentful of them for using her body as a receptacle for their desires. To paraphrase her, she wondered why, if these clients really cared about her, none of them ever offered her a REAL job so she could quit hooking.

I will have to give some of the author's points additional thought. But just as it's wrong to punish prostitution because it involves sex, it's also wrong to defend it just because it involves sex.

Patrick I don't think you can really claim that prostitution has a 'usual form' and it seems more likely you are referring to a stereotype in your culture. Even if there truly is a "usual form" of prostitution I would stress again that you are referring to the experience of prostitutes in a culture where it is illegal and heavily sex negative. Thus this 'usual form' would probably change for the positive in a culture where it was not illegal, stigmatised and also had sex negativity ubiquitous throughout all areas of said culture. Also there is plenty of sex happening that is not exchanged for money that is "not joyful, healthy sexual expression" so that problem is not specific to prostitution nor is it caused by it.

Regardless of all that the argument for the legalisation of prostitution withstands even IF most prostitutes have no interest in being sexual healers and their usual experience is not about sexual joy but about money and supporting themselves financially. That argument is that consenting sex between adults is not something the state should have a right to prohibit. That the legalisation of sex work makes practitioners and their clients safer. That the legalisation of sex work reduces sex crimes within a culture. 

Liandra, some of my knowledge of prostitution comes from working for many years in an inner-city hospital. I still believe that the majority of sex workers worldwide turn to sex work out of poverty, addiction, or even coercion. These people ought not to be punished, but they ought to be vigorously helped to build better lives, if that's what they want.

The whole point of sex work, from the client's point of view, is getting an orgasm. But this is something that nearly all of us can give ourselves. We don't need to risk endangering someone else, either medically or emotionally, because of our desires. That is not a decent way to treat someone. In other words, even if sex work were legal, that wouldn't make patronizing it right. The "stigma" is really from uncaringly using another human being, not from the fact that a monetary and sexual exchange is involved.

If legal prostitution is one way to make a society safer, with less crime, then that needs to be looked at. But so do the root causes of sex crimes and all forms of violence, which are the real problem I believe.

I too think the state has little or no business interfering in certain areas of our lives. There are good arguments for removing the "moral" stigma and legal penalties from prostitution, and generally speaking I would support this. Perhaps the only "penalty" ought to be offering sex workers real alternatives to sex work if they want to get out of it---and I suspect that very many do.

Western societies are heavily influenced by sex-negative religious dogmas that have made people miserable for centuries. I'm all for being sex-positive in every way that supports human happiness. I just don't believe that prostitution in general is one of those ways.To put it another way, if we worked together to create a sex-positive culture in which young people could fulfill their own and other's sexual desires without guilt or disapproval, prostitution itself could wither away as something unneeded and beside the point.

When all is said and done, consent is only one of the criteria for decent, caring human relations. Using someone's person to satisfy desires that most of us can easily take care of ourselves, or trying to extract the maximum amount of money from people as some of us do, fail the decency test in my opinion. Not because sex and money are involved, but because heedless selfishness is. Legal issues aside, we all need to treat one another better than that.

My experience of prostitutes is from working as one at one time and knowing many colleagues in the industry. Many women choose prostitution out of poverty, yes, just like they choose cleaning offices or waitressing. Many people working those jobs probably want the opportunity to get out of them but also some may be quite happy were they are. Neither positions means cleaning or waitressing should be made illegal. Simply put the fact that some people would rather not work that job is not a reason to keep it criminal. 

You go on to say that the client wants an orgasm and is indecently using another human like a receptacle... really? Isn't that just like restaurant clientele wanting a meal, are we using the chef when they provide it for us? Or if we want a massage and a massage therapist provides it are we using them? Are we using teachers when we have them teach our children when really we could do all these things ourselves? Putting all that aside physical intimacy with another human is a major component of the interaction between practitioner and client as well as orgasms and often some additional interaction besides. I understand that working in a hospital you have really only seen a very dark side of it all, and there is no denying that darkness. However tobacco smoking, car driving and stress cause as much darkness. The point is none of these arguments take any of the strength away of the argument for legalisation because it will improve the lives of women who are in that profession whether by choice or coercion...and it could make coercion less possible. 

Patrick if your experience of protitution is from working in a hospital then your experience of Alcohol will be just as bleak. Yet many people enjoy wine or a moderate alcohol use all their lives, just as many people work in the sex industry and see a hospital as often as anyone in the music industry.  
A legal sex practicioner would have an office just like a lawyer wih regular clients who are respectful and think they're incredibly hot, The practioner hopefully would love their workand  like care giving they would have the satisfaction of helping someone and giving orgasms to people seems pretty satisfying. Yes care giving is a pretty good analogy, and most of what you said there about money and personal service could be said about hair dressing, yet most hairdressers provde a good happy, very personal service.
I think a package of legislation would be most effective. If someones addicted to drugs they need safe injection sites and the money that would later be spent sending them to prison spent now on rehab. Legal premises would have to be licenced like pubs, would have to have security. Clients would need to sign a consent type form stating what had been agreed for the session and the practitioners boundaries. And after all that who said any business has to be cold and emotionally abusive, I've just given the example of hair dressing I can't see why sex  work shpuld be any less joyfull. Also their are people who fantasize about being a whore and would love it. Like actors at drama school, proper training would allow people to decide what kind of practicioner they wanted to be and how much of what kind of work they want to do. Being a dominatrix is alot different to being fucked and all your clients want to be abused as part of the session. I've had some massages that come prettty close to that :) Yes I will openly admit to the shame of having an ostiopathic massage :) from so it happens a freaking gorgeous entertaining lady too. 

If it's legalized, it can be taxed. Both from the client paying for the service and the worker's wages. Happy ending massages would be legal and therefore, I would start getting massages every week because nothing says happy like a deep tissue massage and orgasms.

Liandra, I'm not saying that prostitution ought to remain illegal. I'm saying that I think prostitution is usually a misuse of our capacities for genuine intimacy, and a failure of empathy more often than not.

There are good arguments for legalizing prostitution, as we've seen. If it makes things safer for sex workers, I can understand that and I agree with it. In health care, that's called "harm reduction". But making prostitution legal is not the same thing as saying that it's desirable or harmless. In the forms I've seen, it isn't.

Yes, we're "using" our teachers and cooks and so forth. But our relationship with them isn't the pseudo-intimacy of a visit to a sex worker. Prostitutes all too often (with some exceptions) despise their clients rather than feeling warmth towards them. This is a caricature of intimacy. You've seen a somewhat different side of prostitution than I have, and nothing is all black or white. There are always exceptions, I know that. I still believe that prostitution tends to be ethically problematic rather than benign. Basically, that's because it aims at personal gratification without regard for the welfare of the human being on the other side of the bed.

If prostitution were legal everywhere tomorrow, I would still want to
work towards making it utterly unnecessary. Not by banning or
criminalising it, but by offering options to workers who want out. And
by educating young people so that they grow up from childhood with the
ability to enjoy both guilt-free sexual feelings and genuine intimacy
with other people. Children raised in such a sex-positive way won't need
or want prostitution. They'll have very satisfying intimate
relationships of their own.

I understand your perspective but honestly I do not believe that most prostitutes despise their clients but if they do I should imagine they're not the only professionals who do. Not everyone is good or suited to what they do. I have met waitresses and chefs that hate their patrons and doctors and nurses that hate their patients. It happens in all professions and it happens that some feel far more positively too. I think psychology is a pseudo-intimacy service that has been proven to only be effective approximately 40% of the time and can on a few occasion make matters worse. All too often a lot of psychologists probably despise their clients too but often enough they don't and that pseudo-intimacy helps someone troubled to cope. 

I don't think that prostitution exists solely because people are sex negative and have intimacy problems and thus I don't believe you could make prostitution unnecessary either. I think that opinion of sex work is incredibly judgemental and reductive. Being raised sex positive does not necessarily mean you will be with a partner that has the same libido as you, or the same fetishes as you or that you will have a sexual partner at all. The unwanted, lonely or those desiring no strings attached sex will always exist even in a sex positive culture. Masturbation is fabulous and satisfying but for many they will want sexual intimacy with another. If they go for a long time not finding it in the process of their lives they will make use of sex work services. There is no shame in that. There is no ethical problem either. Of course in a sex positive society prostitution would probably look a lot different but currently we don't have a truly sex positive society on the planet to compare prostitution to. You can thank organised religions for that.

I know men and women working independently as prostitiutes who have great relationships with their clients and love what they do with them very much. Whilst I agree that I would like to eradicate educational, economic and career opportunity cultural conditions that force people into sex work coercively and create the side of sex working that is all you are familiar with, I think it is logically erronous to claim that all prostitution is using and ethically problematic. You have only come in contact with the side of prostitution related to poverty, addiction and necessity rather than considered educated choice. The first is ethically problematic, the second is not, and both exist. 

Yeah Patrick I think your being very negatively judgemental based on the unremitingly negative experiences you've had in a hospital. Most spheres of life aren't secret so you know that though someone has chopped their toes off with a lawn mower most people use them fine.. But what if it was secret like prostution, all you would see is the worst accidents to conclude these things are fucking dangerous!. I also think you need to open your imagination to see what sex work  can become under very different circumstances of legality and social kudos. If you think what the theater was like in the mid 19th century.  Seedy, drunken and unruly and shunned by rhe upper class and compare it to todays broadway shows where a night at the theater is regarded with kudos, and regarded as a treat.
Same happened to beauty queens over the same period. No-one in their right mind in the mid 19th century would have put working in the theater or being a beauty queen on their resume :)  In 1970 both completely fine. because those areas had changed. 
I also think you may see commerce as concerned with the consumers  personal gratification with out concern for the welfare of the human beings who produce. That hell is entirely under our control as consumers of anything.  When we do care then our customers care about us and that makes your life (even serving a pleasant customer for 2 mins) a whole lot better than if they don't care. 
Which brings me to care work again. Nurses are praised but they get paid to get right in there in the very intimate. Their relatioship to money and intimacy shows that it doesn't have to be cynical using. If the customer is nice they deserve being nice too. That's it really.  

The unwanted or lonely who seek a sex worker are in a sense seeking a sexual healer or surrogate intimate partner. You're right, there's nothing shameful about this, and one hopes they're lucky enough to find a compassionate worker who will care about them. Some of your colleagues do care about their clients, and that's terrific. I would guess that such workers are probably few and far between. But there is a place for ethical sexual healing that needs to be honored.

I couldn't say that ALL prostitution consists of unethically using
others. That's why I noted previously that there are always exceptions. I do nevertheless believe that there is a definite ethical problem about using a person for sexual relief when you know nothing about that person and about what sex work may be doing to them.

As for those desiring no-strings-attached sex, I think they're on the
wrong path in relating to other people. I'm not myself a believer in sex without any caring or affection at all. Lifelong commitment or being deeply in love aren't necessary to sharing intimacy, but in my view we do at a minimum need to have some real concern for the other person involved. And that lack of concern is the very problem with the transient involvement of another person for sex.

I don't realistically believe that prostitution will disappear any time soon. But if prostitution almost disappeared because most people had loving, sexy partners at home and didn't need it, why would that be bad? We'd have a world in which sexual fulfillment and real intimacy were freely available to nearly all of us, and that would be a huge addition to human happiness. We're a long way from that, of course, and sex work may have its place in helping people out who have few other options. But why not work towards a world in which intimate happiness is the norm?

I'm sure you're right that I've been influenced by my professional work. It's hard not to be. I haven't seen the more positive side of sex work that you describe. Based on what I've read, it does seem that prostitution world-wide, on the average, is negative in its overall effects rather than positive. Perhaps that could be improved over time. We may never fully agree on sex work, but I appreciate your taking the time to have such an honest discussion about it.

I appreciate the frank and open discussion on this challenging subject... it's really excellent... Communication is essential to us growing up culturally regarding prostitution specifically, and sex in general...
Thanks again,
Lawrence

Thank you, Lawrence, for raising your thought-provoking points in your post.

One last thought I didn't quite put as well as I'd have liked: It isn't an ethical problem to have someone cook our meals or give us a manicure, because people don't normally have serious vulnerability issues around food preparation or fingernails. But they often do have them around sexuality. That's why it's so important to ensure that we're acting caringly when we have such intimate contact with another person.

With jobs in the service industry, some days you just don't feel like relating to people, but you go in and do your job. Other days, it's like you've found your purpose in life. If prostitution was legalized, sex workers might have more options about the clientile they would like to work with. I might decide I only want to work with men over the age of 40 for example. If prostitution was legal, sex workers would be able to pay into 401K's and be in a safe environment at work.

It is perhaps time to name and shame antiphilliacs.

Bill Montgomery, Maricopa county prosecutor (Operation Goddess Temple) qualifies for the term, as does any politician that has a fascination with e-spying on sexy stuff.

I have to say, especially after seeing the Sedona Red Rock News headline - Operation Goddess Temple is about humiliation and shame. Those are clear intentions of this "operation". 
Why are we so afraid of female sexuality?!? 

Unleashing female sexuality is scary because sexual women do not fit into the Madonna/whore mold. We know our own minds and bodies. We might not be so desperate for male attention because we can get better sex by ourselves or by picking and choosing our partners based on merit and not necessarily love. I would like to see some brothels that cater to women. Now that would be something, when women can be viewed as consumers of the sex industry instead of only as providers.

There is quite another side to being a prostitute that this discussion so far has overlooked. It is the great satisfaction that many prostitutes have in giving clients a pleasurable time, having them walk out the door with a smile on their faces. Most prostitutes take a lot of pride in their ability to take a client, often in a somewhat down or inebriated condition, some quite inhibited, some with very little knowledge, to take all these variables and still have client go out the door happy. In fact happy enough that the client doesn't mind being poorer. If you look at the task involved, and the variability of the people coming in the door, I think you have to fully respect the professional pride that many prostitutes have in what they do, whether providing to male or female clients. Most only wish that society would get over its hangups, and perhaps respect the skills involved.

I have several friends in the biz who LOVE what they do! Full on! They love their clients, they love the job, they love the freedom it affords them, etc.
I was just talking with a friend this week who was feeling "badly" for enjoying her job so much...
Thanks for the share, fond care...

Many women, myself included, resonate with the archetype of the sacred prostitute and have considered it as a career, but reject it because of the illegality. I'm guessing this segment of the industry would see a huge surge if prostitution was legal. As it is now, many sacred sexuality practitioners cannot and do not touch their clients in an intimate fashion, and those who do suffer stigmatization and ostracism from other sacred sexuality practitioners for being prostitutes. There is a lot of this dichotomy on display right now surrounding the Arizona Goddess Temple bust.
I would also disavow the idea that those who seek out the services of a sex worker are emotionally crippled or can't get intimacy elsewhere. There are certainly many situations where a relationship doesn't make sense. After I left my husband, I searched my metropolitan area for a man I could pay, for sex and also because it would have been wonderful to be able to cry in a man's arms and grieve. My friends and I talk a lot about the sorts of services a male sex worker would offer for women (in addition to a good fuck), and intimacy and presence and emotional care are certainly right up there. Men through the ages have gotten companionship, intelligent conversation and great sex from courtesans. I'd like to have the same opportunity as my male counterparts.

Last year's census showed 43% of Americans to be single, and while some of those may be unmarried but cohabitating, the number of unpartnered people continues to grow. There is a lot of bitterness on both sides of the gender divide that leads people to remain that way, with great dissatisfaction with the state of current relationships. My own experiences of being single in my late 40s showed me eligible single men tripping all over themselves to get to younger, thinner, prettier women, and a whole lot of guys who are poor partner material (and that has zero to do with money).  I'm not much interested in keeping house for an alcoholic or cheating with a married man to get mediocre sex. I get lots of my intimacy needs fulfilled through my friendships with women, but I'm not bisexual. And my odds of finding a partner will continue to decrease as I age, ratios of 10 women to 1 man in retirement homes. If my choice comes down to never having the opportunity to feel a man's arms around me again or paying someone who might be faking it, I think I choose the latter.

Many women, myself included, resonate with the archetype of the sacred prostitute and have considered it as a career, but reject it because of the illegality. I'm guessing this segment of the industry would see a huge surge if prostitution was legal. As it is now, many sacred sexuality practitioners cannot and do not touch their clients in an intimate fashion, and those who do suffer stigmatization and ostracism from other sacred sexuality practitioners for being prostitutes. There is a lot of this dichotomy on display right now surrounding the Arizona Goddess Temple bust.
I would also disavow the idea that those who seek out the services of a sex worker are emotionally crippled or can't get intimacy elsewhere. There are certainly many situations where a relationship doesn't make sense. After I left my husband, I searched my metropolitan area for a man I could pay, for sex and also because it would have been wonderful to be able to cry in a man's arms and grieve. My friends and I talk a lot about the sorts of services a male sex worker would offer for women (in addition to a good fuck), and intimacy and presence and emotional care are certainly right up there. Men through the ages have gotten companionship, intelligent conversation and great sex from courtesans. I'd like to have the same opportunity as my male counterparts.

Last year's census showed 43% of Americans to be single, and while some of those may be unmarried but cohabitating, the number of unpartnered people continues to grow. There is a lot of bitterness on both sides of the gender divide that leads people to remain that way, with great dissatisfaction with the state of current relationships. My own experiences of being single in my late 40s showed me eligible single men tripping all over themselves to get to younger, thinner, prettier women, and a whole lot of guys who are poor partner material (and that has zero to do with money).  I'm not much interested in keeping house for an alcoholic or cheating with a married man to get mediocre sex. I get lots of my intimacy needs fulfilled through my friendships with women, but I'm not bisexual. And my odds of finding a partner will continue to decrease as I age, ratios of 10 women to 1 man in retirement homes. If my choice comes down to never having the opportunity to feel a man's arms around me again or paying someone who might be faking it, I think I choose the latter.

on the grounds that it will make the lives of prostitutes much better by reducing stigma, opening the market to regulation in terms of health and safety, and adding taxes and pension-type benefits, this is all very lovely and ideal in theory. However I highly suggest you read Melissa Farley's "Bad for the Body Bad for the Heart: Prostitution Harms Women Even if Legalized or Decriminalized"
(http://vaw.sagepub.com/content/10/10/1087.full.pdf+html)
While, like many dissenters in this forum, I do not believe that prostitution should be further criminalized or prostitutes punished for their work, I also do not believe that legalization is the panacea that will somehow solve the issues of coercion, exploitation, sexually transmitted disease, or post-traumatic stress disorder in sex work. Farley has reviewed a number of studies to demonstrate that in countries where prostitution is legalized, abuse situations do not decrease but in fact, illegal prostitution increases as the legalization causes more people to flock to that country in search of sex. 
Moreover, instance of AIDS and other STDs have not decreased in legalized countries. It is a misconception that regulating the industry will reduce these diseases. In reality, disease does not come only from the prostitute but from those who visit them, and who in many cases pay more or coerce them into not using a condom. We can educate and regulate sex workers' condom use all we want but it will not change this fact. 
Finally, there is no proof that legalization reduces the stigma faced by sex workers or that it reduces police and/or client brutality or indifference to their situations. Legal or not, oldest profession or not, they are one of the most highly stigmatized groups (think about how the word whore is so ubiquitously used as an insult) and often their claims of rape, abuse, or exploitation are met with the idea that they deserve it as a result of their moral depravity, or that they should learn to accept it as part of their profession. 
Anyway, I am not opposing legalization so much here as asking all of you to think critically and look at the facts when it comes to solutions such as this. Should prostitutes be punished for sex work, especially if the make the decision to partake in it as legally consenting adults? No, of course not . Would legalization really help them in ways that will be meaningful for their empowerment, freedomfrom abuse, and advancement of standing in society? That is a question we really have to look critically at, because the answer might not be what we expect.

about this

Dear mcGillFem
I read the conclusion to Melissa Farley's article and thought that it did not represent a balanced view, representing only the worst aspects of an industry without any reference to the improvements. I felt she had reached her conclusion before she wrote the paper. Also, her paper was published in 2004, a year after New Zealand decriminalised prostitution in 2003. While I agree with you that decriminalising is not a panacea for all the bad parts of this industry, there does nonetheless seem to be and improvement from between 2003 and 2008 when the report of the "Prostitution Law Review Committee on the Operation of the Prostitution Reform Act 2003"
http://www.justice.govt.nz/policy/commercial-property-and-regulatory/prostitution/prostitution-law-review-committee/publications/plrc-report/report-of-the-prostitution-law-review-committee-on-the-operation-of-the-prostitution-reform-act-2003
What are the next steps to continue improvement?